Wendy Cherry
Podcast Transcript Season 1 Episode 14
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Liz Goldwyn: Hello, welcome to The Sex Ed. I'm your host, Liz Goldwyn, founder of thesexed.com, your number one source for sex, health and consciousness education.
Today, my guest is Dr. Wendy Cherry, sex therapist and executive director and co-founder of the American Association of Couples and Sex Therapists, otherwise known as AACAST or AA-CAST. Dr. Cherry is also co-director, coordinator and lecturer for UCLA's AA-CAST programming, which is directed towards medical residents, undergrads as well as licensed and practicing sex therapists.
I met Wendy in 2013 when I began auditing this course at UCLA, although no, I'm not a licensed or practicing sex therapist, I'm just a curious person. And she and I became fast friends. She is my go-to sex therapist for many of the support questions we get thesexed.com. On this episode, Wendy and I cover what sex therapy is and how exactly it works, how we can overcome internalized erotic shame, and how to break the ice to your partner when you want to address an issue in the bedroom.
Liz Goldwyn: Were you personally always interested and open about sex?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Oh, definitely. Definitely. I have a very fundamental Christian background, but I moved out here when I was 13 and a half, which was an interesting age to move to Southern California from just outside of Memphis, Tennessee. But even as a young girl, I was interested in my own sexuality, other people's sexuality, just very sexual. And so during my younger years out here, I did a lot of exploring and a lot of sexual adventuring. So it, you know, I knew, instinctively, that shame has no part in sexuality unless it's eroticized shame.
Liz Goldwyn: But can you explain what eroticized shame would be?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Eroticized shame can be fun because that's the basis of things that are taboo and things that are naughty. And so it's that I'm not feeling this toxic shame, but I'm doing something really outside the norm or naughty. And that shame is the light side of shame because it makes it more erotic. And then the shadow side is the toxic shame of, you know, this is wrong, I'm wrong, this is bad, and trying to reconcile those.
Liz Goldwyn: You describe yourself as a kink-friendly therapist.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, in this field, if you're going to do sex therapy, sometimes you hear horror stories from some of your patients where they've gone to a sex therapist, and when they start talking about their sexual expression, they can tell by the energy in the room, by the therapist's face, by the therapist's body, all that nonverbal communication that the therapist is clearly uncomfortable with the content. And that will put someone who has an alternative lifestyle or an alternative expression of sexuality, that will put them off therapy. And, you know, that's the same issue we have with sexuality in general is an acute sensitivity to shame. So when I say kink-friendly, what that means to the community is that, whatever your expression is, and there are some boundaries around that, you know, including consent, and legality, but whatever your expression is, it's going to be fine. It's going to be accepted in my office.
Liz Goldwyn: How do you get some people, whether they're patients or students to be comfortable talking about sex. Because even sometimes when I'm in your class at UCLA, I see your students who are practicing therapists, who are older than myself, who is not a therapist, giggle like schoolchildren when certain topics are brought up or, just the other day in class, and it was a seminar about sex toys. And I always find that surprising because you would think, oh, if I'm going to a therapist, you would assume that they have a level of objectivity. Right?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Exactly.
Liz Goldwyn: So how do you break that ice? How do you break that ice in your class and also with a patient that comes to you?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, in the class, you're watching it happen because I encourage it. I would rather them giggle and blush and have their reaction in my class, that's much preferred to them having that reaction in their therapy office. So you're seeing those therapists become accustomed to a certain comfort level in talking about all expressions of sexuality. But I also encourage them to stand in front of a mirror and say every dirty word they can think of, every sexual act. And I get up in front of the class and I express it, you know, like ass licking, butt-fucking, fisting. And they were just, like, shell-shocked. You can see it in their expression.
I'm like, "You may hear this in class. I mean, it's in the syllabus; warning, explicit content." Because at the beginning of every one of my lectures, I talk about therapeutic stance and that's that open, attentive, accepting posture. All the nonverbal energy that we communicate to our patients, that is picked up on before any words that we say. So you're actually watching it unfold, that comfort level, with the sex toys and the dildos being passed around class and their reaction. And we show adult films and discuss those in class as well, because this is about acclamation.
Liz Goldwyn: It often seems like the research that's available and the people who are trained therapists are not growing at the same rate as what's happening culturally, in terms of exploration of sexuality.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: You know, my residents in class, they're under 30 most of them and introducing them to this material and kind of getting out of the heteronormative box is good for them, and it's good for everyone. But even our seasoned therapists that have been practicing for 25 years, they need to at least be familiar with the sexual landscape regardless of age. That's why these terms are bandied about in our class. I mean, it's time. Nothing is too much and nor it should be. And I do tell them a disclaimer. I said, "Until you're comfortable talking about sex and sexuality and sexual contact and sexual expression, don't see patients as a sex therapist, don't do it. Get comfortable first."
The other thing that I recommend that they do is give a sexual history to a friend, take a sexual history and get really used to asking the questions, asking the questions that aren't that comfortable for them.
Liz Goldwyn: It's interesting you bring up taking a sexual history because I've had also some conversations with resident students in your class who are training to become doctors. And they've told me that in pre med, they only get one day of sexual health training. And I think most people would assume, when going to their doctor or their primary care physician or a therapist that's not trained specifically in sex that that those doctors or therapists, they have the background to deal with sexual dysfunction, trauma, et cetera when in fact, they don't.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Exactly. And that's one of the reasons I think our class is always full. And one of the reasons that we think this work is so important because the statistics don't lie and the fact of the matter is, is that across the medical field, only about 30% of doctors are comfortable talking about sex and sexual health. And that's medical doctors, you know, that's why even my referral sources for urologists and OBGYNs, I make sure that they have a specialty in sexual health. Because what happens as a lay person, if you have a sexual concern and you begin to bring it up and you pick up on all the nonverbal transmission coming from the practitioner, you're going to clam up and you're going to say, “Nevermind.” And that, unfortunately, is what happens. And that's part of one of my lectures. I tell our medical residents that. Don't be that doctor. It's not helpful. It's not healthy.
Liz Goldwyn: So what do you do for-- if I was coming into your office as a patient, how would you make me feel comfortable to tell you about something that maybe I feel a lot of shame about, whether I'm coming in by myself or with a partner?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, I am quick to tell my patients, "Look, I know we just met and we're going to talk about one of the most intimate, personal parts of your life. And I understand that that could be uncomfortable for you, but I want to let you know we can go at your pace. And I also want to let you know that anything you tell me is absolutely fine. Anything about your sexuality, because your sexuality is as individual as your fingerprint and it's yours. And it's a part of you. It's a healthy part of you. And if there's an issue, I want to make sure that we can help you work it out."
Liz Goldwyn: What's the most common problem that you get in your practice? Is there-- is it easy to quantify or-
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Yes, (laughs) it's easy to quantify. It's very easy to quantify. People would probably guess, oh, erectile dysfunction or orgasmic difficulty. No. The number one thing that keeps me busy is desire issue. Whether it be desire discrepancy, or a lack of desire due to relationship issues, or lack of desire due to personal issues or some kind of sexual trauma. It's desire.
Liz Goldwyn: How do you get around-- I mean, it must be specific for every case, but-
Dr. Wendy Cherry: It is. It is absolutely specific. The rule of thumb, as a general rule is if you work on the relationship and improve the relationship and clear the field between two people --and this is gay, straight, polly, whatever-- you keep that field clear and the communication and the intention, then the sexual relationship improves.
Liz Goldwyn: How can you break the ice with a --outside of your office-- with a partner if there's something that you want to try in the bedroom that you feel uncomfortable bringing up, if you feel like, you know, you're not satisfied sexually, but you're worried about hurting the other person's feelings? What techniques can people use to break the ice to start talking about this?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, there's a couple of things. I think most people would prefer it to be a very intimate conversation and that's the face to face and really good eye contact, and that is looking into the left eye because it corresponds with the right hemisphere of the brain. And that's where your emotional seat of your brain is. So looking at the person's left eye-
Liz Goldwyn: I'm just trying to just stare into your left eye now.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: That's what I do. You've never noticed me doing that with you?
Liz Goldwyn: No. Now I really do. Yeah. And I remember you talking in class when we've talked about neuroscience and sex talking about the left/right hemisphere. So that's a good tip.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: When you're talking about sexuality or sexual contact especially, but it's a good rule of thumb in a close relationship, to not talk about what the person is or isn't doing, or God forbid what they're doing wrong.
Liz Goldwyn: Not say, “You did,” or-
Dr. Wendy Cherry: “You're not doing,” “you did,” talk about yourself.
Liz Goldwyn: I feel.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: So I had a case, a couple, and they were young. And she was like, "Oh, he's so perfect except I can't stand the way he kisses me. What do I do? What do you do with that? I don't know how to-- how do you even talk to someone about that?" I said, "I understand." I said, "Why don't you sit cross-legged on the bed in front of him and say, "You know what, I'm going to kiss you like I like to be kissed and I want to show you." And this same rule applies. It's like, "You know what sweetheart? I really love so-and-so. You know, I have to tell you something, I've always fantasized about so-and-so. Do you know what makes me feel really good?" You know, because sexuality is particular.
I have opened up these dialogues and I've had one lady say, "Well, in the beginning, when we're messing around, I like it when he pinches my nipples. But when I'm already aroused, it's irritating." Okay. Now that's pretty specific and something a brother needs to know, right? Because he's like, "Hey, this works." And then she gets irritated. He's like, "Wait a minute. It worked 10 minutes ago." So you have to have a really open dialogue, but talk about yourself. And that encourages your partner to talk about themselves and what they prefer and what they like.
Liz Goldwyn: And consistently be doing so, because to that point of her liking her nipples pinched during foreplay but not when she's seriously aroused, your sexuality chain is so fluid on a year to year basis, or month to month basis that, you know, what you like now might not be what you like, you know, as you get into a partnership.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, yeah. And if we talk about longterm relationships, people grow and develop every day, and their sexuality grows and develops. I'm not a fan of the 50 Shades books, but they really kicked off a, kind of a exploration, I think, in longterm relationships of different types of sexual expression. And physically we change, we age. So I had another case, bless her, she had her first child and a lot of stuff got moved around, as it does when you give birth to a child. So, she not only had no idea how to orgasm, but all the things that he was doing, her husband before, they weren't working either. So she had to kind of relearn her own body. And then he had to relearn it as well because, you know, nerve endings move and all kinds of things move around. And that turned out to be a really fun thing for them. Instead of them having a "sexual problem", they were like, "Oh! We're starting over. It's like we were 24 again. It's like, I have to find out how you work." So that worked out well.
Liz Goldwyn: I guess it all depends on your approach, because I've heard a lot of even friends have this problem, depending on how you look at it, or also a lot of heteronormative men have told me that they lose interest sometimes in their partner after childbirth. So perhaps thinking about it in those-- in that framing-
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, that, but I also-- you've heard of the Madonna-whore complex kind of thing, and that's not really-
Liz Goldwyn: Mmm-hmm (affirmative). Can you explain that to the listeners?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Yeah. That's not a complex. It's not like, "Oh no, she was a whore and then she had my baby and now she's Madonna and I can't reconcile the two." It's a closeness issue. And it is an increasing level of commitment. So what are the levels? So when you say we're a girlfriend girlfriend, we're a boyfriend boyfriend, or we're boyfriend girlfriend, whatever it is, that is a little tick and your unconscious picks it up. When you move in together, your unconscious picks it up. Till next thing you know you're like, (gasps) and you don't know why you feel differently, but you do because the closest dynamic is in the unconscious. So you have to work in a longterm relationship to see your partner with fresh eyes.
Liz Goldwyn: So when people talk about men or women having commitment issues, in fact, perhaps they have closeness issues.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Everybody has a closeness issue. It is-
Liz Goldwyn: Even if you're conscious of it.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Obviously it's better if you're conscious of it, but every human being, the way we pick each other, we pick each other unconsciously. Every human being in a longterm relationship has a closeness issue. I have a closeness issue. I have a fear of envelopment. Now, fortunately I unconsciously picked someone with the opposite dynamic. So that makes the yin and yang, right?
Liz Goldwyn: The yin and yang is-- it would be great for you to explain that terminology as well.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, I look at it as balance. What you'll find in most longterm couples is, they-- since we pick each other unconsciously, we kind of pick someone that will balance us out. And that works in the closeness dynamic as well. So I don't like being controlled. I don't like being enveloped. It's difficult if you spring things on me. I can be spontaneous, but my basic challenge in life is to turn those “I have to,” into those “I want to.” My default is I have to. I'm also a self-regulator. When something is wrong, I'm more apt to internalize and try to deal with it myself. Well, I pick someone who's an external regulator, when something's wrong, he comes and finds me because he wants to get it out, and he loves interaction. I can spring anything on him. He's like, "Oh yeah?" but I'm the opposite. I'm like, "Wait a minute! Let me wrap my head around it. Let me get comfortable with it."
Liz Goldwyn: So you want to pick someone with opposite qualities in the way in which you handle the world.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, that's where it gets complicated because the perfect mix is someone that is unconsciously balancing you out, but you have similar insecurities. If that makes sense.
Liz Goldwyn: Yeah. So back to your practice and couples or individuals who come in maybe wanting to spice up their sex life, what sex toy would you recommend? For your, like, starter sex toy suggestion?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: There's a couple. I really, really --and I know it's an old standby, but my goodness it works-- and I think everyone is familiar with the Hitachi Magic Wand. That's like an old standby, but it works and it's very versatile and that's a good one.
Liz Goldwyn: And then that's a vibrator?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Yes. That's a personal massager, but I'm not sure it's-- I often wonder, it's like how many of these have been sold as a personal massager, but okay. The second one is, as far as a starter, I really like is a vibrator called a G-spot Stimulator. And it has a pretty long body in a curved head and has an egg shape on the end of it. And it has varying vibrator speeds, but its G-spot stimulator, it's meant to be inserted into the vagina and the egg, which is hooked up, stimulates the G-spot. However, it's a great clitoral massager, and because of the curve, it can be used in a number of sexual positions. And I've been recommending that for years, years and years as a starter. And then there's a lot more fun things you can do. There’s, obviously there's been sex toys on the market that have remote controls that you can hand to your partner and that can get fun.
Liz Goldwyn: So going back to the G-spot massager, it might be a good time to point out the difference in types of orgasms you can have. I think many women have only ever experienced clitoral orgasms and might not be familiar with the variety of orgasms one can have. Can you break it down for us?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, the way I break it down, and I understand it my own way, and I lecture about this in class is, you know, men, bless them, argue about the existence of a G-spot. They argue, does it exist? Does it not exist? And that's pretty silly to me because it's like, okay, here's your answer: it depends on the female. Whether it exists or not, whether it's accessible or not, how sensitive it is. You know, yes, can you have a G-spot orgasm? Yes. Can you have a G-spot orgasm and ejaculate? Yes, you can. Do you have to ejaculate? No, you don't. Again, it depends on the female. But for the sake of your listeners, in most females, about probably an inch to an inch and a half on the anterior wall of the vaginal canal is a raised or rougher spot, and that is a very --in some women-- a very sensitive spot. But it's one of those, if you don't look for it, you don't know it's there. And the penis is not curved up usually in most males. So it takes mindful or conscious stimulation. And that's why these toys are curved.
Ejaculate, there has been men sit around and argue about if that's real or not. Yes, it is very real and no, for any of your listeners that are wondering, it is not urine, it is female ejaculate. And it's most common with G-spot stimulation, but not required. It's just the most common with that. But any of your female listeners out there, if you don't know how sensitive your G-spot is, I recommend that you find it immediately.
Liz Goldwyn: Because it’s-- the orgasm is more intense than a clitoral orgasm.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Yes. I've heard it described as it feels like your teeth are falling out.
Liz Goldwyn: That's a good analogy.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Now, the clitoris is another interesting topic. Most people think that the clitoris is the little tip right above their urethra. And it's a much bigger organ than that. It has two legs that can go down either side of the vulva. The tip is literally just the tip of the iceberg. And then from that tip, it can extend far back into the body. So there are all types. If, sometimes when you watch adult films, you will see the performers when they have vibrators, they're moving all around their vagina. That's why.
Liz Goldwyn: Don't forget about the sides.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Exactly. Don't forget about the sides.
Liz Goldwyn: Do you use pornography in your practice? Do you recommend it?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: I do. I do. I have quite an extensive library of pornography and it is everything from A to Z. There is pornography that is produced by women that has a storyline that is more applicable to some couples. And then other couples really, really enjoy the POV or the really dirty. And again, it's all good. It's all good. But I make sure that I have everything in my library, including the wonderful line of educational videos. For the last few years running, the top selling educational sexual DVD has been Anal Pleasure for Him. So more and more men, I think, are getting in tune with all the different erogenous zones in their own body and the fact that anal play does not make you less of a man or any of that nonsense.
Liz Goldwyn: You're talking about for pornography market-- anal pornography or play marketed towards heteronormative men.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Yeah, primarily. Been a top seller.
Liz Goldwyn: A lot of the texts I read outside of class -- it's interesting though, even medically-- it talks about sex between a man and a woman and it just seems so outdated.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: No, and I understand that and the issue is again, that makes up-- it's still the majority. And I have to really watch myself that I don't only speak in heteronormative terms, even though that is still a majority of my practice. But again, the younger people are changing that landscape and they should, and it's up to the rest of us, especially the older practitioners, to play catch up.
Liz Goldwyn: Speaking of which, and changing ideas around relationships and sex, what do you think about infidelity and monogamy? Are humans-- we meant to be monogamous?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: I don't know Liz, are you?
Liz Goldwyn: I'm asking that-- I think it's a choice that we make, or that one makes.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: It can be, but again, this is the individual. And I'm not talking about religion, I'm not talking about culture, I'm talking about the human animal. Some animals mate for life, others, absolutely do not. Why should we be any different? I think it's good if it is a mindful, open choice. You know, I recently had a couple that came in, and this is after like 18 years, and we had a dialogue about-- she just wanted him to know that if he ever wanted to talk about opening up their marriage, that she was open to talking about it because she acknowledged, and he acknowledged, that keeping a certain level of desire in a longterm relationship, that's a tall order and it's hard to do. It's possible. But it does, it takes work.
Liz Goldwyn: How does fear of intimacy play out sexually? Do you see a lot of people separating sex from intimacy or using sex as a way to avoid being truly vulnerable with another person?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: In my head, I call those people short-cutters. They're short-cutting. That's also a marker of dismissing by the way, the short-cutting. So yes, and I see all variations of this, but there is one basic fundamental thing that is true across the board. The human animal has to have connection. Has to. If we do not, we will die. Now, you think about these people that live their lives in isolation and they do it and they're fine. It's like, okay, on what level are they fine? I believe there's a difference between adaptation and being okay. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Liz Goldwyn: Isolation because they're devoting themselves to a God or goddess or?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: That's still a connection, right?
Liz Goldwyn: Yeah.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: The human animal does not do well in isolation. I see all different configurations of how people want to be close and not too close. They want to be connected to another human being, but not lose themselves. And you have to understand that a great relationship is fluid. That you're going to go from that state of oneness back to twoness, where you're separate, and back together again. And it's going to stay fluid, and it needs to, to stay healthy.
Liz Goldwyn: What was your most difficult case so far?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Aye-yie-yie, a couple jump out. There's a couple, one where, this is a heteronormative couple, and he hit 40 and he-- and they had plenty of money, their kids were doing fine and he had this reawakening-- romantic reawakening. And she wasn't having it. And, you know, he was getting in touch with his more vulnerable self, his softer self, and she was rigid and freaked out and they divorced in my office, decided on divorce and he cried and she didn't.
Liz Goldwyn: Wow.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: And that was kind of stunning to me that-- how it got there and what was going on with her. But she was like, "Okay, thank you, doctor." Moving on. And I was like, "You're welcome to come in for an individual session." She goes, "Oh no, I'm okay. I'll be fine."
Liz Goldwyn: She just wasn't ready to look at herself in that way.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: No. But lost. All he wanted-- he did not want her to hang from the ceiling in a sex swing-
Liz Goldwyn: He wanted to be seen.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: He wanted to talk and her to talk and he wanted to know about her and he wanted to tell her about him. And she was like, "Whoa!” Deer in headlights. That one has haunted me for 10 years. The other one that I get that is difficult is sexual stagnation in a marriage where it's like, okay, I don't want you to be with anybody else, but I don't particularly want to have sex with you. And the stuckness that happens around that, the stagnation that happened around that. That’s-- those are difficult ones.
Liz Goldwyn: In Chinese medicine, stagnation as a term that's used a lot for acupuncture and balancing the yin yang energy. We were talking about earlier, it's all about moving energy, moving stagnation because when things are stuck, it, you know, causes frustration, it causes, quite literally, dis-ease in the body and in the mind.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: I think it can. ‘Cause parts of us to start to die. And that's never good.
Liz Goldwyn: What do you say when men can't get hard with a condom on?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Wow. That is a challenge. Well, that is kind of a desensitization process. And I tell the man, "I know this is a challenge, but what I would like you to do is pleasure yourself with the condom on because you have to get used to it and you have to get used to the reduced sensation." One of the techniques that we use to treat rapid ejaculation is condom use, but it's temporary, because the body adjusts to sensation. Conversely, Liz, I have also had to take away the Hitachi Magic Wand from a female, because what was happening is that she was only able to reach orgasm with it. And that's a lot of RPMs. This is a pretty serious massager. And I was like, “Okay, you need a break,” because the body adapts.
Liz Goldwyn: I was going to ask about that, about desensitization with using sex toys.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: With using sex toys, with-- there's a natural desensitization, I think, that occurs in relationship, which is why it's good to be open and mindful and connected to keep your sexual relationship fresh. Talk about toys. Talk about, have you wanted to be tied up? Have you wanted to tie him or her up? Talk about it because life's too short not to have really great sex.
Liz Goldwyn: Well, speaking of where I think an interesting conversation that's happening in sex right now is the conversation around sacred sex or spirituality and sex. Especially within the kink and fetish community, there is a lot of talk of spirituality, which I think some people outside of those communities might not put that together.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: I think the concept of transcendence in sex, it's definitely not mainstream, but it's definitely something a lot of people in the more alternative communities know about. So do you know what subspace is? (Laughs) Well, when you posed that question, I thought about it, yeah, transcendence. Subspace is this kind of transcendent space that many submissives get into when they are in play with a Dominant partner. And it is a very transcendent, spiritual, just really, really energetic place, so much so that the whole concept of aftercare --aftercare is after a scene with a Dominant/submissive pairing-- the submissive is always nurtured and held and wiped down and cradled and cuddled and given water and taken care of because they've just really gone on a transcendent spiritual journey. Well, why should that be limited to submissives? That's one corner of sexuality. So I feel ya.
Liz Goldwyn: I think probably a lot of women who are in more heteronormative, vanilla relationships, or even not with a partner, but experiencing many different partners would probably like that aftercare experience.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Oh, definitely. That's part of it. But, you know, interestingly enough, if you think about subspace, it's like the person that gets there is embracing that moment, is not feeling obviously shame, not feeling insecurity, not feeling negativity around their sexual expression. So yeah, mind, body, spirit, body sexuality, spirit sexuality, mind sexuality, they go hand in hand. It's natural.
Liz Goldwyn: Let me just get back to sacred sex for a minute. If we read ancient texts and we read about religious ecstasy, isn't there a component of that that's orgasmic ecstasy with the entry of the spirit, the spirit of God, then you.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Exactly, exactly. Definitely. And I think that's across cultures. I think that's, you know, this society is the one that has a problem with it, you know.
Liz Goldwyn: And it's funny because we even have a problem with accepting that someone whose background is very Christian or Pentecostal or Jewish or Buddhist, even if they think within the new age movement, there can be a lack of understanding of someone who was raised with like a more Western religious perspective and their experience of sexuality and how maybe they bring their spirituality into their own understanding of themselves and their desires.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, exactly. And I’m one --you know me-- I'm one that there is no room for judgment, and talking about either someone's sexuality or their spirituality, there's no room for judgment. Everyone's on their own journey.
Liz Goldwyn: Another new topic within the field is somatic research. Peter Levine, who has written some studies of how animals react to trauma and stress in the wild and how their bodies, they literally shake until they shake off their fear. But humans, you know, when we have a traumatic experience, whether it's a car accident and we get whiplash because our muscles seize up can also happen in cases of rape and sexual assault and sexual trauma, that, quite literally --not only does your mind hold the memory and there's that to weed through-- but then your body also holds onto these traumatic memories around sex. And that research seems from, what I've observed, to be fairly new within the field.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Yes. I mean, somatic work, I think is just now gaining its own ground because it has been proven to be one of the most effective modalities for trauma, and the body does keep score. That's what Vander called his quote. The body does hold these memories. And unfortunately, unlike animals, most of the time we're not allowed that period of after we've escaped the lion per se, we don't get that period of where we get to get up and shake it off.
Liz Goldwyn: It's interesting to think of dealing with things like sexual trauma, with a combination of classical therapeutic methods, psychological methods, but also things like massage, energy healing, Reiki, things that have been relegated to this woo-woo new age mentality, but actually like, things like acupuncture, they can help with stagnation within the body. They can help to release some of that trauma and stress. Do you believe that to be true?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: I'll tell you a funny story. So when I first got into this field, I was talking to someone that had been in it for years and years. And he said, "You know, you ever been to Africa?" And I said, "No." And he had told me about this book and these therapists were-- or these mental health professionals were going to these tribes. And so through an interpreter, the therapist was, you know, talking to the chief and the chief asked about what he does and he told him and the chief just died laughing. And so the therapist said, "What's so funny?" And he said, "We touch our people. And if they're children, we pull them all into our laps and we touch them and have them tell us about it." Now, how old, how many thousands of years this tribe been in existence? And, you know, therapists did point out, granted it was a small sample, it's a small tribe, zero mental health issues. What do you think?
Liz Goldwyn: I think sometimes the body needs to be touched and the body needs to move. I love to recommend that people get a hula hoop. For me, for the simple reason that I think it keeps you juicy and lubricated, but it's also that sense of play, that moving that energy around, moving your body. I've seen a lot of women and men have really good success rates cry, if they haven't cried in a long time, just simply going to get a massage or have Reiki. And whether that's a placebo effect, I'm not sure.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: No, absolutely not. And I actually have prescribed that. I call it the mindful massage. And with my extremely dismissing type A, can't relax, difficulty connecting, I say, "Okay, I want you to go get a massage." And he's like, "I've had a massage before." And I said, "No, no. I want you to focus on one second at a time. Where you're being touched, what your skin is doing under the touch, and just really focus on that for the entire massage." And it's been transformative in some cases. The fact of the matter is, is that touch is one of the most healing things one human being can do for another. And that's why it's so effective in trauma treatment.
Liz Goldwyn: Why do you think there's so little research on female sexuality?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Well, let's look-
Liz Goldwyn: At who's writing the texts?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Let's look at who-
Liz Goldwyn: Who's funding the research?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Exactly. Let's look at who does research in the medical field, let's look at who gets grants in the medical field. So let's follow, if you will, what I like to call the Viagra chain. Right? So think about it. Think about the ROI on that research-- return on investment. Okay? It cracks me up that they're looking for the female Viagra, it's like talking about the wrong way to approach something. (Laughs) Right? But there was a payoff to that and the field is still very male dominated. Now, not to say there's been some terrific female researchers, but --and there are more-- but the time it takes to go through peer review and have the research published. And again, if you throw that on top of difficulty this society has talking about sexuality in general, you can see that it's not like research on the latest heart medication that goes screaming right through. It's slower.
Liz Goldwyn: What are you still learning about sex? Is there anything lately that really blew your mind, whether it was a concept or a new vocabulary word or even a new book you read?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Let's see. I really like Opening Up by Tristan Taormino. I really like that book. I'm really interested in what you're doing with the spiritual aspect of sexuality, because that's something that I have not yet had a chance to immerse myself in, but I have always known innately that there's something there. I'm very, very interested, which is funny because, you know, I'm 50 this year and so interested in the tweeners and millennials and how they're expressing themselves. And not only expressing themselves individually as far as gender fluidity and sexual fluidity, but how they're expressing themselves in human relationship and how fluid that is. So I've kind of turned my attention to that without trying to be the creepy old lady that's like, "So tell me about this." They're like, "Oh my gosh, she's Dr. Ruth reincarnate."
Liz Goldwyn: We love Dr. Ruth. Wendy Cherry, who has probably the best name of any sex therapist that I've ever heard of --I mean, Dr. Wendy Cherry, what a great name-- If there was one piece of advice that you could give, one piece of free therapy that you could give regardless of gender orientation, what would it be? In terms of sex therapy? Free sex therapy?
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Oh wow. That's easy. That's an easy question. One, you are made how you were made and you're absolutely perfect the way you were made. So accept all parts of you, especially your sexuality. Two, if it's on your mind, find someone that feels right. Don't pay attention to so much what they tell you, pay attention to what they feel like. What does your gut tell you, find someone that your gut feels good about and talk to them about it.
Liz Goldwyn: We need to pay more attention to our gut. Again, the mind, body, spirit awareness of our sexuality. I think we tune that out all too often. We tune that out with alcohol, with drugs, with food often with sex too when we get away from being mindful of the way in which we connect to ourselves, our gut feeling and our sexuality.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: I agree. I agree. Definitely.
Liz Goldwyn: Thank you.
Dr. Wendy Cherry: Thanks Liz.
Liz Goldwyn: That was Dr. Wendy Cherry, sex therapist and executive director of aacast.com. If you're interested in Wendy's private practice, she can be reached through her website, drwendycherry.com, and that's Cherry like the fruit.
Thanks for listening to The Sex Ed. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to visit us at thesexed.com.
The Sex Ed is hosted by me, Liz Goldwyn. This episode was produced by Isley Grundy for The Media Mob. Jackie Wilson is our line producer. Jeremy Emory is our sound recordist and editor, and Bettina Santo Domingo is our coordinator. Louis Lasar made all of our music including the track you're listening to right now. Until next time, The Sex Ed remains dedicated to expanding your orgasmic health and sexual consciousness.