Betony Vernon
Podcast Transcript Season 1 Episode 15
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Liz Goldwyn: Hello, welcome to The Sex Ed. I'm your host, Liz Goldwyn, founder of thesexed.com, your number one source for sex, health, and consciousness education. My guest today is sexual anthropologist, Betony Vernon. Betony is the author of The Boudoir Bible: The Uninhibited Sex Guide for Today, and the designer behind Jewel Tools, a line of haute couture erotic jewelry. Betony is also a world-class bondage expert and mistress of the ropes. We've known each other for years and in 2015, she gave me my first professional bondage experience. Although I'd been interested in the fetish community for some time, I was apprehensive about being tied up. Experiencing this ritual in Betony's safe hands was life-altering and gave me new respect for the power of the ropes. We discussed that experience, Betony's new book on digital dating, and how bondage can help trauma survivors heal themselves. I caught up with Betony while she was vacationing in Italy, so if you hear a commotion in the background, that's just a few boisterous bar-goers. And now, here's Betony Vernon.
Liz Goldwyn: I love that I'm calling you from Los Angeles and you're in the French countryside in a bar, probably looking so glamorous.
Betony Vernon: I'm actually in the Italian.
Liz Goldwyn: Oh, you're in Italy?
Betony Vernon: You're going to get motorcycles and Italian cars.
Liz Goldwyn: (Laughing) It adds to the flavor. It adds to the flavor.
Betony Vernon: (Laughing) Yes, I'm dressed for the interview in your honor.
Liz Goldwyn: What are you wearing? Describe what you're wearing. (Giggles)
Betony Vernon: I'm wearing 1930s touring shoes, white leather and flats, you'd like that on me. And I have on pinstripe pants again, 40s with a really high waist, and a tailored white top just for you, Liz.
Liz Goldwyn: What are you wearing underneath though? (Laughs)
Betony Vernon: A very pretty white lingerie. It's summer, I'm trying to go with the flow, you know. It's not my favorite season, but I'm in the middle of nowhere.
Liz Goldwyn: And it's a new moon in Leo today, which is really good. I feel like it's a very spicy, loving new moon, which I think we all need. We all need that.
Betony Vernon: Well, I'm Leo and my birthday's in two weeks.
Liz Goldwyn: Oh my gosh. What day is your birthday?
Betony Vernon: The 15th, you?
Liz Goldwyn: Christmas day.
Betony Vernon: Oh no (Liz laughs). Actually, mine is on a good day. It's on the day of the Beata Virgine to take out all the virgin statutes and they parade them around the town. And it's a really important holiday. When I first got to Italy, I didn't speak any Italian and there was a calendar in this little room that I rented. I was 20, and I looked at the calendar, there was nothing on it but on the 15th, there were my initials.
Liz Goldwyn: Oh, wow.
Betony Vernon: I was like, "Why are my initials on this calendar?" And the guy that was hosting me says, "Oh, that's because it's the Beata Virgine, so happy virgin, honey."
Liz Goldwyn: (Both laugh) That's the perfect segue into our interview today, which I'm so excited about. Thank you so much for making this work.
Betony Vernon: Well, I'm happy that you are doing another book and it sounds really exciting.
Liz Goldwyn: I'm really excited about it. And I'm really excited to include you in it and to have had the experience of working with you personally, because it gave me so much more insight into really what you do. And we haven't been able to catch up and download the experience since we worked together, and I have a bunch of questions. You talked a lot about breathing and meditation and being in your body, which I wouldn't think about initially. I think as an outsider, an average person who knows nothing about bondage or domination or being a dominatrix.
Betony Vernon: You know, we weren't alone, there were other people in the room, and I felt that you were a little bit nervous. And if you breathe into it and you allow the cords to take you some place that's not necessarily where you'd normally go with your mind and your body, then the experience is heightened. And it's important to breathe because if you don't, you can also ask to be out of it before you should be. It's all about pleasure, I think that we have so many misconceptions about what it means to be bound. People get nervous and are afraid, so yes, breathing is super important. And the cords sort of command at a certain point, they make you sort of relax if you are comfortable, and I think that you were. I cannot wait to tie you up again, Liz.
Liz Goldwyn: (Laughs) I felt very safe in your hands. What I learned about myself from the experience is being with you felt very safe, but I don't think I would want to do it with someone who wasn't a mistress of kink as you are, who I really trust. But, you know, going back to the breathing and being in the body, I found that very interesting because I think a lot of women, especially because women have experienced sex different than men do. They're in their heads a lot of the time during sex. And when you kept on repeating, “Be in your body, be in your body,” I thought that was a very interesting exercise in general.
Betony Vernon: You know, I do a lot of breakthrough and healing work with the cords in a context much like what we did together, that wasn't erotic. I mean, it is erotic because it is the body, the body's the focus. And the only thing I asked you to do was to come feeling beautiful. And you did, you came, you were gorgeous. I think you were wearing Dita lingerie. And it is about connecting the mind to the body. And trust is really fundamental because if you don't trust someone, then you can't really let go. And the cords, if you lean into them and you give way to them, it is all about letting go. There's a freeing aspect to it.
Once you're set free, you realize that there has been a shift, and a part of that shift is not actually something that we can control. The brain, it goes into a mode that is a little bit on alert, just because it's not normal to be constructed and it's not normal to be hugged. In fact, I recently did a session with Midori in Paris that was documented also with photographs. And I was probably in the cords about five hours.
Liz Goldwyn: Who's Midori?
Betony Vernon: Midori is a masteress of the cords, and she lives in San Francisco. She's half Japanese and half German. And she wrote a book actually that is The Art of Japanese Bondage, which is a really basic guide that I have recommended to a lot of people who want to use the cords because my book is not a book about bondage. It's about the power of the cords, it's got a little section on getting basics down. But she really goes into it extensively and when I am with someone who I totally trust, I let-- Midori suspends me, it's a half suspension and it's beautiful. But you have to trust them and the person who's using the cords has to also understand where not to put the cords, which is super important.
And with Midori, I came out of the cords and I was on a super high induced by the cords. But of course, the cords are inducing it through the body itself. And the body starts to produce all sorts of feel good hormones like dopamine and oxytocin. Oxytocin, because we get a hug from the cords as well. I consider when I'm doing cord work as a healing session, that the cords are like a hug that takes your whole body, like you were a little child again. And I do have a method where I tie you into a very tight fetal position, it's very elaborate. And then at the end, I set you free with scissors.
Sometimes I do this with a ribbon or with smaller cords and it creates a release response, which is powerful. And it's about building trust again, trust in others, trust in your own body, and trust in the cords. And feeling that connected. From a symbolic point of view, we are connected to the cord, which is the umbilical cord as we are children. And so I try to bring that symbolism into my technique when I'm using the cord with women and men, but mostly women in healing sessions.
Liz Goldwyn: Do you use silk ribbons sometimes for the fetal position?
Betony Vernon: Yes.
Liz Goldwyn: That sounds amazing.
Betony Vernon: And again, symbolic because I get them to buy the 200 meters of silk ribbon and the color is really important to them. It may have memories, it may be a sign of letting love back in. It depends on them and it's very beautiful. They also become a gift because I believe that we are all gifts and we've all been gifted the gift of life, but we are also gifts to this world. And turning someone into a beautiful package is empowering. This kind of session is very feminine. Sometimes women are also in a position where they're afraid to embrace their femininity because they are often victims of abuse. When I do this release work, there's almost always been abuse in their lives and it's powerful. It creates a release.
If I cut you out of a silk ribbon, you may have a cathartic reaction to it if you're guided, and I'm there to guide people. I'm there at your side, constantly watching every single thing that happens. And admittedly, I also tune into a space that's like a meditative mindset. And the cords do induce similar sensations and feelings and mental states that meditation does, both for the person being bound and the bindee. Because as a bindee, you can't miss a cue, it's high concentration. And of course, the aesthetic result is also beautiful for both. I like to put my bound person in a position where they can actually see themselves because aesthetics are important.
Liz Goldwyn: Yeah, I found the trust games you did towards the end of our session, showed me a little bit of how beneficial this would be for healing trauma. Because I think around the same time that I experienced that with you, a guy friend of mine was having a real heart to heart with me, and he told me a story about when he was a child playing a trust game with his father and his father let him fall.
Betony Vernon: No!
Liz Goldwyn: And said, "Let that be a lesson, never trust anyone." And he's quite scarred. He's been unable to have fulfilling, lasting relationships and I really connected those two experiences. There's so much discussion about safety before anything takes place, which in general, I feel we're lacking in our sexual culture from a very young age. And even as adults, people don't communicate with each other. So to experience-
Betony Vernon: Now trust, whether you're using the cords or not in a sexual context, is really important because you cannot allow yourself to sincerely let go if you don't trust the person you're with. Especially if you're using cords, everything is basically amplified when you start to bring in cords or any other instrument that permits for full body stimulation. And trust is everything. I would never allow myself to be bound by somebody who I didn't fully trust. And I'm actually working on a re-edition of my book in French.
And I ended up working on a chapter that deals with digital dating and hooking up because a lot of the hooking up that's going on does not aim whatsoever at building a relationship. It's just a sexual release, that's pretty quick and a lot of people go into it even stating, "I'm not interested, basically. I'm never seeing you again. I just want to have this moment and then it's done." Which in many ways is really beautiful but for my philosophy in the boudoir, it doesn't work, because you can't do these things with strangers. It would be really stupid and dangerous because sexual abandonment is where the pleasure comes in. It's where we allow ourselves to go someplace else into that sexual dimension, that sexual plane.
Liz Goldwyn: And by abandonment, you're talking about feeling free during sex with someone you trust, not being abandoned sexually.
Betony Vernon: Exactly. In fact, that's rule number one, you don't have somebody tied up and walk out of the room. Again, it can instigate a cathartic response. And it's also dangerous because someone could struggle and find that maybe you put on a cord wrong. And the cord slips or somebody hands could go a little numb. You just don't leave somebody who's tied, rule number one. You don't leave them alone.
Liz Goldwyn: When a woman or a man comes to you specifically for healing or trust work, do you usually do a number of sessions with them?
Betony Vernon: Yeah, it's gradual. I start of course with talk sessions and it's-
Liz Goldwyn: With talk sessions?
Betony Vernon: Yes, we talk things through. I know the person really well before I tie them up. Yeah, it is gradual. I have people that come back and sometimes they'll come, would get the work done. I have a really beautiful example of a session that I did with a woman who was actually in her sixties and finally decided to take her life in her hands and live again. She was a victim of abuse from a very early age, from an uncle. The parents were aware and so I consider that also parental abuse. And she jumped out of a window when she was 12 and didn't get all of the surgery done until she was 60.
Liz Goldwyn: Oh wow.
Betony Vernon: And she was having difficulty because her entire lower jaw moved in and crushed teeth. And she could have died, but she didn't. Her intention was to die at 12, bless her heart. So we started with a lot of talk therapy sessions, and then I felt that the bondage could be a way for her to go. And she agreed, and it was very beautiful. And we did six sessions and they were really gradual. And the last one I did finish with the ribbon, and she went and she brought raspberry-colored ribbons. And in my space in Paris, I have a lot of possibilities. It's rigged for doing bondage and we were using a lot of lines that were symbolic lines to her uncle, to her father, to her mother. And when I cut her out, she remained with one ribbon that stayed attached to the ceiling and I gave her the scissors. And she cut that last knot away from her, which was probably her mother. I mean, she called it her mother.
So the cords are super symbolic. When I'm doing this kind of therapy work, there's definitely connections to symbols and those symbols are people, experiences. I consider knots things that can be undone and victims of abuse have knots. And if they're not undone, they carry them their entire lives. So those knots for me are symbolic also of healing through eliminating knots and symbolically, it's very beautiful. And it's effective, it's really effective. I saw this woman about six months after the last session, which took about two years to do. She came back when she was ready, she was doing some other work with a psychologist. And I always said to her, “You call me when you're ready for another session,” and that was the last time I saw her, the one with the ribbons. And six months later I saw her and I didn't recognize her.
She'd embraced her femininity, she'd let her hair grow out. She was wearing makeup, she looked gorgeous. She was dressed in pretty clothes because she was one of those ladies that had really been afraid to channel her femininity. Her femininity had her punished as a little girl on, and she'd also married a man who was abusive because he was not present. Nobody's touching you or hurting you physically, but they are hurting you emotionally because they're holding back when they should be giving love. So that's a good example.
And it was six progressive sessions. Of course, in the first sessions, it's very light. I see how a person responds to being constricted and we work with trust. We work with the trust games and as I said to you, when we did our session, I can give you a taste of what leaning in and moving forward. And putting your body in a place that's really unnatural, you can't hang around at 45 degree angles unless you've got a cord. So you have to trust me and you have to trust the cord. So that whole process was a succession therapy, and I saw another woman come out on the other side. And that's empowering.
Liz Goldwyn: That was my favorite part of the experience because I wasn't expecting it at all. And I wanted to try working with you because obviously, I love and respect and adore and admire you, but after so many years researching sex and often a lot of stories of abuse with the burlesque queens. And also my last book on prostitution. There's so much trauma and so much abuse and so much darkness, I wanted to have a greater understanding of your work. And the way I approach situations is often by putting myself in someone else's shoes. And while I may not go as far as you, I want to have a real understanding for it, and that experience-
Betony Vernon: Well I would love to do it again.
Liz Goldwyn: I want to come to Paris and do it in the silk ropes.
Betony Vernon: Yeah, you have to.
Liz Goldwyn: I'm auditing this class at UCLA and there's this amazing psychotherapist called Winston Wilde, who specializes in kink-aware treatment. And I thought about you a lot during the session because he was talking a lot about spiritual sexuality within the fetish community. He's an advocate of spiritually-aware kink. And in that moment of doing that with you, it felt very connected to the studies and research I've done in psychotherapy, bodywork, energy healing. And I was so surprised to find it in that moment.
Betony Vernon: Yes! Well you can't separate it, and this is what our society has done. Starting with Aristotle and his view of the mind being superior to the body, rather than connecting them. And the moment that we disconnect the mind, body, spirit, triangle, there's going to be suffering. And this is one of the things that I'm dealing with now, with this idea of incessant hooking up. And I've encountered people who hookup with their dating apps and they're seeing sometimes two people a day. And they'll do it seven days a week, or six days a week. And these are often men doing this. And for me, it's extremely dangerous to disassociate the soul from sexual exchange, which I consider it to be the highest form of communication that there is next to meditation. Communication with yourself and communication with others, the spirit is affected.
You cannot see somebody different twice a day and every day. And anonymously search for just pure pleasure because at the end of the day, it's going to catch up with you. And it is going to affect your spirit, and to think that the spirit is not connected to the sexual union is naive. It's really naive. How much more personal could you get? Your peri-personal space is blending with somebody. And of course, we know that when you make love to somebody that you care about, or you have a session with somebody that you trust and care about, the power of that is positive. And it does touch your soul. Look, you came away from that introductory session with me moved and understanding that it does touch the spirit. It does connect body, mind, and spirit. You can't disconnect it. It's a Christian thought, you know, that they're disconnected and one is better than the other. No, they're all interrelated.
And if your temple, your body is blocked or you haven't taken care of yourself, any physical experience that you're going to have is either going to be the effects of either going to be diminished or less positive. When you're in your body, if I say to you, "You need to breathe with me. Don't forget to breathe." There's a disconnect and it's dangerous. Same for sex without ropes. If you don't breathe into your body, if you don't breathe into the pleasures, your orgasm is going to be stuck down there in your genitals rather than flowing through your entire body.
And don't forget the Taoists and the Tantrists, they believed that the next best way to enlightenment was making love with a skilled partner. And skills were important, no? Both to the Tantric and the Tao of loving. I consider it a form of meditation, and it's about being present. And being able to just be in that pleasure and be in your body. And not have your mind spinning. You really have to turn your mind off and let everything else take over, pleasure and sensations and sharing. And the effects of blending, again, your peri-personal space. You're blending it with someone else's and to think that that does not affect your spirit, I think is really naive.
Liz Goldwyn: I love how you're connecting the digital sphere and digital hooking up because of course, we're both all for feminine and sexual empowerment. But I think especially if you're a heterosexual woman, there is a literal psychic consequence because you're receiving the energy with every sexual act. So you've got to be careful. You have to be very careful. Get a great vibrator, learn how to uterus breathe, learn how to give yourself orgasms.
Betony Vernon: Exactly.
Liz Goldwyn: You don't need a partner to experience that high.
Betony Vernon: No, you don't. I think that women are in the dating game, especially the mobile and the hooking up game, are the ones who take less pleasure from it. We do have pleasure in giving. Regardless of gender, we should have pleasure in giving, but as we know, a woman's time for climax and orgasm is really different than a man's. And, especially if you're with somebody that you don't know, who doesn't know your body. And I think that a lot of women walk away from the hooking up experience, probably not taking pleasure. Giving a lot, but not taking their own pleasure. I'm sure there's also women out there that do because they just know how to use the moment to their benefit, which is great. And I hope that women, as you said, by learning how to use a vibrator and coming on your own, and breathing into your pleasure and being aware of what's going on down there, then yes, you can go out there and make love like a man. Go and get it and get what you need from it, and go home.
Liz Goldwyn: If you're starting from a place of self-love.
Betony Vernon: Yes, of course. And I think that can happen, but it does take a certain level of sexual experience and sophistication. Otherwise, I think that women probably find ourselves pretty much givers in those situations with total strangers. And personally, I think that our bodies, our sexuality, the sharing of that energy is really powerful stuff. And to belittle it and banalize it is a mistake. There's a lot of things to be lost there, especially if you're not protecting yourself. So these are the things that are going on today. You're probably studying your statistics as well, in terms of what's going on with STTs and HIV. And everything's on the rise again, we're not in a society that's talking about how to play and play safe. It's fine, if you want to hookup, I'm totally fine with that. Great, go and have fun, but be smart about it.
Liz Goldwyn: And there's two ways of being safe. There's being safe by using protection, but there's also being safe by really building trust, considering yourself. Treating your own body and soul as a temple, having conscious sex.
Betony Vernon: Yeah, conscious sex, not consumer sex. And I think it's just a question of communication and we need to start in the schools, communicate all of these various effects of sex on our lives because children are exposed to sexual content constantly. I was really shocked to learn that on Tinder, 7% of the users are between the ages of 11 and 17, Liz. That's a lot of kids that are playing around an adult sphere. 11 to 17, that's young. That's too young, they're minors! I spoke with my sister about it again, because she specialized in child psychology. And she says that a lot of times there is actually an adult behind the child that's aware of this happening. And there's lots of space for damage and abuse within the system. I don't think that we can just overlook this fact, 7% is a very big part of the users and daters on those applications. In this case, it's Tinder that they were speaking of.
I think this is a problem. Just like there's phases in a healing session or a bondage session, there's phases that we should go through as we have evolve sexually into maturity. And I think you'll probably agree. An 11-year-old does not have the same sexuality as a 40-year-old. I'm so sorry, but it should not be in the same place. And schools need to talk about it! Schools need to be educating children on all levels, not just biology anymore, you know? And not the dangers alone because we don't want to go back into an era as we were in the 80s of sexual terrorism. I think that that is to be avoided no? It shut people down. It's negative. When you're sexually aware and well and knowing and accepting, you're just a better person all around. It affects every part of you. Again, it goes back to how our sexuality is connected to our minds and our spirits, not just our bodies.
Liz Goldwyn: Mind, body, spirit, I was about to say that. That's what it's all about, having a holistic approach to your sexuality as part of a healthy life, which includes meditating. Or whatever your own spiritual practice is, which includes being grounded in your body. Which includes working on yourself, and having love and empathy towards fellow mankind. It's all connected. You cannot separate sex from life, it's part of nature! I always learn, with every conversation I have, with every person I speak to, but I've learned a lot from you. And I'm just so grateful for you taking the time to speak to me today because everything you're talking about is so in line with where I'm at, and where I think we need to be moving culturally, worldwide, globally.
Betony Vernon: Yes, I totally agree. It's about being a well society and being balanced. And learning how to create boundaries and learning to say no. And learning to say, "I like this. And thank you. And that was great." And it should be great. We're all equipped with the same possibilities to have really, what I consider, transcendental pleasure. And I'm not interested in a 20 minute hookup, it does nothing for me. I mean, I might have a couple of orgasms and bring them on by myself because I doubt that my hookup partner is really going to take the time to do it. But I am not interested in that kind of sex, in general. It gives me nothing, it just makes me want to have more.
Liz Goldwyn: Let's be clear that we're talking with a heterosexual bias here, when we're talking about this.
Betony Vernon: Yes. In this moment, yes. If I was going to hookup with a woman, it would probably be much more exciting. (Both laugh)
Liz Goldwyn: Yes, yes. She would be much more aware of the way her body works and your body works.
Betony Vernon: Definitely, definitely. If I was gay, I'd definitely use that hooking up thing. We know that gay ladies are some of the most appeased. But with heterosexual men, I mean, I think it's really important that we bring the gentlemen with us as well. This is why I decided to write my book without choosing to work with women only because I think that we really have to grow together.
Liz Goldwyn: Absolutely. We have to lift man up. We can't man-hate.
Betony Vernon: No.
Liz Goldwyn: Educate. Not man-hate. (Laughs)
Betony Vernon: Yes. No, no, no, I'm with you. I am really with you on that. Crushing anyone is useless. We're all here together and that's that. One of the interesting things about the digital dating for the LGBTQ community is that it does equalize things and it gives them an opportunity to connect with each other. And I'm really grateful for that, I think it's amazing. 40, 50 years ago, it was complicated. And even up to 20 years ago, 10 years ago. Up until digital dating a lot of people go into an application and say, "Okay, I'm a gay woman. I'm going to go on to her and I know that everybody in there is looking for the same thing. And I'm not going to be stigmatized, I'm not going to be put down for it." I think the only community that's missing a little bit of space is the transgender community, but I'm sure that won't be for long. There's something there for almost everyone, even 65 and over.
Liz Goldwyn: Sex and aging is a whole other ball of wax that we need to address. Your sex life does not stop when you're 60, 70, 80 years old. It just changes.
Betony Vernon: They used to say that a woman was useless after menopause-- if you couldn't make a baby. Yes, it does change. But it actually can keep evolving with you if you don't stop having sex. We're moving into a new era, definitely. My sister, who's like super open-minded and 55, she's having a great time with her new man. I like to think that the way that I'd go was having a great orgasm. What a way to go.
Liz Goldwyn: (Laughs) Well, on that note, I think that's a good place to end our conversation for today. Thank you so much, this was so enlightening.
Betony Vernon: I'm definitely a kinkster, that's for sure. But I don't consider myself really a dominatrix. I use the tools of kink for healing purposes as much as I do for pleasure, and I think categorization is dangerous. How many doms do I know that would never switch? I'm a switcher, I am on a pleasure quest. I feel like a sexual equal at all times and the love in my life is always somebody who's a good lover. And is skilled and is experiencing multiple orgasms just like me. I am not afraid to go to the other side. I love to provide, but I also love to be provided for. And so I don't consider myself a dominatrix.
Liz Goldwyn: How would you like to be identified?
Betony Vernon: As a sexual anthropologist. I design, I'm a designer. I work around pleasure, pleasure is my motor. The body is my inspiration. Pleasure is my goal for all. And I'm hard to put a title on, but I think that dominatrix is not the right one. How would you see me?
Liz Goldwyn: I want to see you as you would like to see yourself. But Betony Vernon, I would call you a mistress of the ropes, a sexual anthropologist, and healer seems all quite apt.
Betony Vernon: Sounds good. Great, it's all really flexible, no?
Liz Goldwyn: Yeah, it is.
Betony Vernon: Anything that I can do to help further our sexual wellbeing as a society and as a whole is my pleasure, Liz.
Liz Goldwyn: Well, I absolutely adore you and come back to Los Angeles soon. We miss you over here.
Betony Vernon: I will.
Liz Goldwyn: Sending you lots of love, happy new moon in Leo. Celebrate yourself.
Betony Vernon: Thank you, it's my moon. Okay, you too, girl. Bye.
Liz Goldwyn: Bye.
Liz Goldwyn: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Betony Vernon. You can find a catalog of her work at betonyvernon.com. To hear more from Betony, visit thesexed.com, where you can watch Betony and myself discussing the intersection of fashion and eroticism with Dr. Kate Lister, who runs the fabulous Twitter account Whores of Yore: A Living Archive of Sexual History.
Thanks for listening to The Sex Ed. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to visit us at thesexed.com. I'm your host, Liz Goldwyn. This episode was produced by Idea Farmer in association with Fanny Co., and edited by Rob Abear. Alyssa Venetucci did our sound recording and Eddie Ryan was our line producer. Special thanks to Josh Bean. Louis Lazar made all of our music, including the track you're listening to right now. As always, The Sex Ed remains dedicated to expanding your orgasmic health and sexual consciousness. Thanks again for listening.