Natasha Lyonne: Sexuality & Women in Hollywood
Podcast Transcript Season 2 Episode 19
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Illustration BY Black Women Animate
Our guest for this episode is Natasha Lyonne—actress, director, producer, writer and renaissance woman, whose most recent brainchild is the Netflix series Russian Doll. Longtime friends Natasha and Liz talk about the power dynamics of appearing nude on screen; their shared fascination with women like Mae West and Alla Nazimova; sexual appetite; and why the brain is a major turn-on
The following is a transcript of the interview from the episode:
Liz G:
This is very professional. We've never had a professional conversation before.
Natasha:
Well, haven't all our conversations been professional?
Liz G:
They kinda have been. We've explored having professional conversations.
Natasha:
Yeah, we've had some real ones.
Liz G:
Yeah, about Mae West.
Natasha:
Mae West. You really, in our friendship, sort of educated me so much on who the real Mae West was and why she's such a deeply iconic sort of feminist all time hero. She's in so many ways the first, right? That she was really creating her own material on her own terms. It was really early on, before anyone else was, right, even if it would take her to literal prison.
Liz G:
That's true. But she did get dragged off to jail for a play she wrote called, Drag, in New York and another one she wrote called, Sex, in New York before she went to Hollywood. She didn't even come to Hollywood until she was close to 40.
Natasha:
Another awesome feature 'cause we know, nothing even happened until 40. It's literally all just practice. You're just getting ready.
Liz G:
I think so. I think so. I used to always think since I was 16, that a woman becomes a woman at 40 and a man becomes a man at around 50.
Natasha:
Yeah, oh my God and the sex. 'Cause when he started having sex, 60, 70, 80 year olds. When he really gets ... I don't know, I'm just riffing. But-
Liz G:
But Mae actually-
Natasha:
But Mae-
Liz G:
But Mae in her 80s, was having lots of lovers. She was peaking and supposedly Catherine the Great was, too.
Natasha:
Is it a rumor about her with horses? Is that the right person?
Liz G:
That's the person you're thinking of, yeah.
Natasha:
Tell me a little bit about Catherine and the horses. I know you know this.
Liz G:
I don't think that there's any photographic, there were no photos anyways back in that time.
Natasha:
So does that mean no Instagram? I'm sorry. I'm stupid. How does life work?
Liz G:
There's no documentary evidence that Catherine the Great, the [Zarina 00:02:57] of Russia, Imperial Russia, ever practiced [BC Ality 00:03:03], but it's rumored because she had this legendary very sexual appetite, like Mae West did. I think it's funny even the way we talk about these women because I don't think their sexual appetite's probably that much different than some of their male contemporaries. It's just the fact that they had an appetite and were open about it at all.
Natasha:
Yeah, radical.
Liz G:
Very radical and also Mae, we're talking about her coming to Hollywood at 40. She's already established herself as a playwright and a persona and now she has the power to create her own stories. And you're kinda in that space, now, yourself.
Natasha:
Yes and with the sexual appetites to match. And I'm gonna tear this town down. If conquests are crossword puzzles ... But first of all, where do the rumors start with somebody? I wanna get back to Mae, desperately. I wanna talk endlessly about Mae to be clear. So, I just wanna move that aside for a second and just get back to Catherine. I wanna share a curiosity only because we've spoken so often about Mae and tragically, not as often about Catherine and so where do the rumors come from? It's just because there's word on the street is, or do you think it's actually, it was horseplay-
Liz G:
There was horseplay.
Natasha:
I am so sorry.
Liz G:
There might have been horseplay, but we do know that she was-
Natasha:
Was there other animals? Is it like [crosstalk 00:04:38]
Liz G:
There were a lot of lovers and she supposedly would give parting gifts to lovers that she was discarding, gifts of 10,000 serfs, which were slaves, which is insane when you think about it. To have that kind of power and wealth in Russia at the time. Such extreme wealth and extreme poverty. So, if she was discarding a lover, that was her parting gift. Right? But then that person has to house, feed and clothe 10,000 people. [crosstalk 00:05:11] Yeah. So that is where I think some of the rumors of her legendary appetite came from.
Liz G:
But, I think also, like, the same way in Hollywood or musicians or artists or part of that myth making is important for your persona, right?
Natasha:
It's a fascinating thing when you speak about the sort of double standard of ... With men it's always, I guess speaking personally, I always see it as a great badge of honor that these women and I think you do, too, have these kind of appetites, 'cause to me it does, it kind of makes them feel more like-
Liz G:
Human?
Natasha:
Well, human, but also sort of like equal heavyweights. Equal contenders or something. The idea that they weren't having to sort of stuff it down to exist, means that they were kinda at some sort of peak self-actualization, if that can be equated with power, than sure. But, always with a man it feels like such an achievement that they had this endlessness of conquests. And I think very much I would idolize those men as a teenager and sort of think there was no reason why it wouldn't be the same.
Liz G:
What men did you idolize as a teenager?
Natasha:
I guess just the people you would read biographies ... It would be like, Bob Fosse's endless appetite.
Liz G:
Love Bob Fosse.
Natasha:
But it's real problematic in this department, right?
Liz G:
Yeah.
Natasha:
That's Root Beer. And Root Beer's had a series of lovers. She's a doll, but she's her own entity. I don't control her. No she doesn't ... All she cares about is food. But food and sex, I guess, really and similar conversation.
Liz G:
Yeah, because think about all of the men that we've celebrated for their literal appetite. Elvis Presley, Pavarotti, Orson Welles… Marlon Brando.
Natasha:
Alfred Hitchcock?
Liz G:
We don't really ... I haven't heard that much about him and food, but these lusty appetites? Whereas, if you think about historically about women who've had a big appetite. I think we're only now in the phase where we're celebrating body positivity in different shapes and sizes and embracing yourself, but historically, we would label women who had a lusty appetite as obese, but we would label people like Elvis Presley who supposedly would take an airplane with all his crew in the middle of the night to get a fried peanut butter and banana sandwich. Just a quirk of the wealthy.
Natasha:
Well, I would say that I always had a kind of like, a fantasy, a sort of Caligula based fantasy as a wild teen that was sort of, when you would see a Roman Emperor in a toga, in the baths and they were being fed grapes and then everybody was ... A type of a scene. People are over there and over there. Everybody's sort of having sex with each other, but they're being fed grapes with a goblet and they're kinda busy, which is I just liked the idea of sitting inside of all that chaos. Not necessarily partaking-
Liz G:
Would you wanna be the emperor?
Natasha:
I think I would. I like the idea that it would be just sort of madness happening all around me and I'm just eating some grapes kind of reading a book. I always find that idea very exciting. I don't know if I really wanna be engaging in an orgy. It seems very stressful. But I'd like it to be around more often. I like it if they would just, crazy things happening on the sides of the street and whatever. If you went to a party. You go to a party, it's so dull.
It's small talk. Why do I wanna go to a small talk party?
Liz G:
You can go to a sex party.
Natasha:
I know but then it's so on the nose. I went to a sex club in Berlin and it was just like, "Okay, so this is sex. Where's the middle ground?" It's a nice dinner party, but also some casual fucking is happening this side of the room and people are just sort of checking, "Oh, lovely." And you just pick these vegetables from the garden, wonderful. And also you're hard core out of your peripheral vision, but you're not even looking, 'cause you can also see it across the room directly. Just beyond you.
People sort of turn their heads at a place. You go to a fancy restaurant or something. You're sitting with somebody and across you notice that your neck keeps swiveling towards the door while you're talking to them. Like they're looking for something more exciting to becoming in. How satisfying would it be if in fact they didn't have to swivel their neck, 'cause there was just triple X activity happening all around them and it was okay, just to look. That would be fun.
Liz G:
This does exist. Many places, including Los Angeles.
Natasha:
Where? So you go to these places?
Liz G:
Not regularly.
Natasha:
'Cause I thought you invite me to a lot of yoga. Pilates. Do I wanna come over for tea? I'm not hearing a lot of these invites, Liz.
Liz G:
I'll keep that in mind. I'll keep that in mind.
Natasha:
Like I'm saying-
Liz G:
I'm pretty stay at home and go to bed early type of gal-
Natasha:
What's funny is, I don't even watch porn or anything. I think I'm describing something I can't even put my finger on. Like, it's-
Liz G:
I don't watch it either. I do sometimes. I do for work. All the time I watch porn all the time for work, so in my personal life, I don't really 'cause I've kinda saturated and I need to turn off the brain and looking at that.
Natasha:
You need like-
Liz G:
... Same thing if I went-
Natasha:
Documentary to get turned on.
Liz G:
Yeah, like, oh my God. No, I like erotica. I like to read erotica. Maybe my brain works more that way. Or photographs. I love looking at erotic photographs.
Natasha:
Such an academic and it's one of my favorite things about you. You're like a real ... Even what turns you on is essentially the written word.
Liz G:
Well, a brain turns me on.
Natasha:
Me, too. I would say-
Liz G:
I think that's why we became friends.
Natasha:
Yeah, I think we like brains, we love them. Yeah.
Liz G:
I wanna talk about agency and power, because one of the things in our adult part of, phase of our friendship, because there was a phase of our friendship when we weren't really adults.
Natasha:
We were twins. No, we were teens.
Liz G:
Yeah. We were late teens.
Natasha:
Yeah.
Liz G:
Yeah, the first time I met you, I think you were dating Eddie Furlong.
Natasha:
Yeah.
Liz G:
That's how long ago it was.
Natasha:
Yeah, that was ... I was really in love. Eddie and I were really in love.
Liz G:
I saw that.
Natasha:
So young.
Liz G:
You've lived a life. You've lived a life. You've had experiences. You went to hell and back and you've arrived at this place now, where I feel you've really come into your age and your power. And a lot of that is through your lived experience. Do you think that has brought you closer to your sense of self and sexuality?
Natasha:
Certainly a sense of self. Sexuality is a curiosity. I don't know that I think about it, maybe at all. I definitely think about it, but I don't know. I think I'm probably ... I'm such a kind of all purpose addict type of personality of things that feel good. I like them, I want more, so I always sort of generally and whether that's even like the feeling of having finished a draft of a script. You know what I mean. It's almost like, in the same terrain of, a pint of ice cream, yes. An orgasm, terrific. Like, it's all, a cigarette, great. A new idea, wonderful.
I made the flight, excellent. I think I tend to have sort of almost like pleasure center responses but then I think maybe what's sort of shifting is sort of a healthy relationship to not strictly associating sex with, "I want it. Give it to me." "I liked it. I didn't like it." Sort of a base relationship to it. Meaning, the relationship I'm in is the first relationship that's really ... We've been together for almost five years. I don't that I've ever been with somebody who's as brilliant, before. Sort of like you're talking about, if ultimately like that attraction is kinda like the sparkiness of sort of two minds connecting and being like, "Wow, this is fun. This continues to be fun." That sort of excitement.
Liz G:
I don't necessarily mean sex as something an act that you have or you do or experience. I mean your internal sense of self, your power, your sexuality being part of that. Being part of the power that you bring into, let's say, a meeting at Netflix. Sort of being-
Natasha:
"Hi, guys. I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm leaning on my sexuality. So, I've got a couple of ideas I'd like to run by the company. Idea one. This is pretty great, right. Number two, we all want it. Three -
Liz G:
Well, you have a lot of sex in Russian Doll.
Natasha:
Yes.
Liz G:
But kind of like repeatedly the same-
Natasha:
The same sex over and over in a quantum loop, but still it's sex. No, but definitely I think in terms of gender in the first place. These days I sorta think a lot about tweens today and their language and I say that lovingly. As you know, I'm a big fan of the internet and I love seeing what the kids are up to and I think it's fascinating the way they are self labeling and self gendering is highly empowered and on a personal level it makes me wonder, for example, Clea Duvall, who's one of my oldest and still best friends. I talk to her often and be like, "Do you think that if we had been ... When we met we were teenagers. We were teenage actresses in show business. Would we have identified as male or something?"
Because I think, people so often think I'm gay and well, certainly, I've slept with women and that, I mostly don't think that's my trip, however, I do think that I ultimately don't identify as a woman. I think that experience is very kind of elusive to me. Kind of even the obsessions, the girliness, are kind of Coachella, flower headdresses or whatever the fuck girls are into ... I've never totally ... I like it from a distance or I even like looking at girls boobs and stuff, but I don't really like, I sort of identify with a longing for them or an understanding of what they're into, kind of. I'd much more ... So, for example, I've always loved as you know these women like Jean Harlow is so charismatic, Mae West or Bette Davis.
There's so many incredible female figures. Gena Rowlands, there's so many women that I ... Grace Jones. But ultimately, I think my sort of philosophy is much more-
Liz G:
Open the door for him? Ultimately?
Natasha:
But I think that ultimately my philosophy is much more male in terms of like-
Jack Nicholson, Bob Fosse. You know when I see, I screened King of Comedy the other day and I can't remember sort of my teenage self wanted to be more Scorsese or DeNiro and I know that as incredible as Sandra Bernhard is in that movie and she is fucking iconic and legendary, I think mostly what I was responding to when I saw it as a teenager was, who is sort of Scorsese and who is DeNiro and how the fuck are they doing this?
Liz G:
Well, they had power. Right? They had power. They were the ones having power behind the camera. And most of the women who were stars at that time did not.
Natasha:
Yeah, or even when you see that fucking heavy tragic footage that is on the DVD, The Making of The Shining that Kubrick's daughter made that documentary. And you see, tragically. It's so, so dark that you see Nicholson and Kubrick in their full power. You know what I mean? Like, they are just top of their game in that moment. And Shelley Duvall's sort of intentionally as this sort of whipping post who's just kind of breaking down in character, just devastated and rattled and never gonna be the same kind of.
And I think that as a young person, falling in love with what it was I was gonna come to do as a grown up or I guess I was already doing stuff as a child actor, but I was always sort of identifying with that idea of, "So the people in this equation that ..." You know what I mean? I wanna align with, so what are the mannerisms of Kubrick and Nicholson? Not what are the mannerisms of Shelley feeling lost. So, I would see sort of ... We have one friend who has incredible eyelashes, right? And really always looks to me like the amazing Shelley Duvall in Brewster McCloud with Altman, I don't know him, so Robert Altman, Bob. And the Bud Cort, Brewster McCloud or in Nashville ... Sort of like Shelley Duvall in, what is it? Is it, Three Sisters? Is that right?
Liz G:
No, Three Woman.
Natasha:
Yeah. Kind of like that era was so incredible and we have that friend who sort of looks like her and yet I always affiliate that with the sort of female dumb, that I don't quite understand. But in my head, I'm highly cast-able. You know what I mean? I want to photograph it, but I don't quite relate to it. I relate to the male energy of this person's ... I'm talking about like her intelligence, her kind of IQ, her ability to speak on political things. On sort of African American studies that she was a major in. I don't know how to describe it.
Natasha:
However, this sort of, the book that we both love so much, that we both came to I guess around the same time, which is-
Liz G:
The Girls by Dana McClellan.
Natasha:
Yeah and the sub-title is Sappho Goes to Hollywood. And the cover of the book is Tallulah Bankhead, Greta Garbo and Marlene Dietrich and they're all in their kind of sort of suits heyday. They're sort of like masculine and this book was huge for me.
Liz G:
Me, too.
Natasha:
Yeah, I was like, this is kind of a sweet spot of where gender collides and so, anyway back, before we maybe talk about that, in Russian Doll, I think that sort of gender list persona was what I was after, been creating a kinda all female writer's room, an all female directing team. The character was based on Elliot Gould's portrayal of Philip Marlowe in The Long Goodbye. All the references.
Liz G:
Great film.
Natasha:
Yeah, great movie and so all the references are male, kinda like the way that he's sort of absent-mindedly also obsessively dealing with "Where's my cat? I gotta deal with my cat." Men have sorta the freedom in film to kinda ... They're not burdened in the same way by like a child, pregnancy. What does it all mean in that way? So, they have sex a little bit more absentmindedly like I think Nadia does in Russian doll, which is a little bit more, "All right. And that's a round, take it home." "Ah, shit. Now, I gotta get back to work after they leave. Got other things to do. Other fish to fry." Not like the guy leaves and I'm up all night, kind of wondering what tomorrow's gonna bring with him, which is sort of how traditionally ... And by the way, not a feeling that is alien to me.
Natasha:
I certainly am plenty female and experience those feelings to obsession with boys. Boy craziness.
Liz G:
I can attest to all that.
Natasha:
Yeah, like body dysmorphia, what should I wear? Is my make up and hair good? I experienced all of that stuff, but I think the older I get when you talk about walking into the room and having that sense of, it's not the same anymore. It's like so relieved to not be an ingenue and leading with pheromones like against my will. Do you know what I mean?
Liz G:
And you were such an ingenue on screen. Like Slums of Beverly Hills.
Natasha:
Yeah.
Liz G:
Which has one of my favorite scenes with you and Marissa Tomei learning to use the vibrator.
Natasha:
Yes.
Liz G:
Was that uncomfortable for you at that age?
Natasha:
No. So, the scene with Marisa and the dildo dance was not hard. It was challenging. I got into a car accident sort of a few days prior that was sort of like a scar of a steering wheel along my chest, so my nightgown was pulled up and taped to my neck, basically. I can really tell how young I am, 'cause you can't even see it in me. You can't see it in my face, I'm like Teflon, I guess at that point.
And there were other things that were scary for me, like I had such a crush on Kevin Corrigan and doing that scene where we're both sort of naked and spooning in the back of his Cadillac with that big overhead shot was so scary for me.
Liz G:
That was your first sex scene?
Natasha:
Yeah, but it wasn't even a sex scene.
Liz G:
Do you know what I mean? Like posed coital.
Natasha:
Coital kind of ariel wide shot. It wasn't like we start on nipple and pull out. And I think still, I'd be like ... I'm really a prude when it comes to that and I think when I look back at Slums of Beverly Hills, I'm like, "God, I was so fuckin' hot." Like why didn't I just run around in my panties all the time on screen? I'd be like I always had a long t-shirt. I was very self-conscious and I think mainly I still am that way. I think that there was probably not unrelated to my love of old movies and feeling like I never saw women in those situations. Do you know what I mean? You might find Dietrich in kind of a-
Liz G:
Negligee.
Natasha:
Not even a negligee, but I'm thinking about those, what are those called. Those sort of like cabaret costumes.
Liz G:
The top shorts?
Natasha:
Yeah, like top shorts and a whole kind of a look. And that I think, I would do all day, but-
Liz G:
Have you ever done explicit nudity?
Natasha:
No. I'm just very shy about it in terms of like it feels, almost a sense of ... Since I'm doing this since I'm so young, it was kind of like when was the right age? Because I was always sort of, it was almost like seeing [Aria 00:27:04] stark naked the other day. You know what I mean? It was like, "Ah, Jesus Christ." As soon as it came on, I paused it and Googled. I was like is this kosher to watch?
I think that internally, I probably had a similar response system of ... In my head they were almost an outer body separate person than I was managing. It was like when is that little girl from Pee-Wee's Playhouse gonna be old enough to show her boobs? This feels weird.
Liz G:
Did you get pressured?
Natasha:
Yeah. I would say, not pressured insomuch as asked. Orange is the New Black, they would ask me. On Slums of Beverly Hills they asked me. I remember on, But I'm A Cheerleader, it was kind of like you and Clea have the sex scene and Jamie talks about how she ended up with a NC-17. Jamie Babbitt the director, But I'm A Cheerleader, talks about how she ended up with a NC-17 rating because Clea and I didn't want to take our clothes off. So she ended up shooting it all in the dark, so that Board became convinced that it was so explicit, and there was so much pussy mashing happening, where they couldn't see it, that it should be a NC-17.
And in fact we were fully clothed, just like in the dark so I think it was also Clea had a bad experience on the set of Little Witches, where they really did a gratuitous kind of sex scenes of teenagers. And it was just tricky being a teenager, because no matter how sort of like wise you were, movies you knew, no matter how good you were at acting, writing, whatever, the idea is that you could not enter a room without your sexuality on a scientific level entering ahead of you. So, even if you were kinda like a mess in sweat pants, you were still immediately sexualized in a way that was just exhausting.
And just thinking I wanted no part of it. But now I look back and I say, "Ah, I would just ..." Emily Mortimer, who was somebody who I really respect and was super cool and I don't associate with sex or Julienne Moore. They got it out of the way so early that they could grow up and play roles that as 40 and 50 year old women, they could continue to do nudity in a way that wasn't hyper super sexualized in that way. It was more born out of character.
Liz G:
Yeah, Julianne Moore just wearing the shirt and no pants and short cuts is one of my favorite scenes.
Natasha:
Amazing. Or she liked bottomless swinging in The Big Lebowski. Remember that? That's one of the great nudity. It's the idea of having that kind of ... It's a different kind of power the way they do it.
Liz G:
It's tricky though, 'cause we have close mutual friends that have been in that position of being really pressured to do nudity when other actors, let's say on their show, wouldn't or have done nudity and gotten reamed for it. It was completely reamed for it. For what? From where I stand, no apparent reason.
Natasha:
Well, the thing is, I would say I absolutely, I love other people's nudity. And I love nudity, now as a director, producer, writer type person, I'm a big fan on an Italian level of I think I love sort of surreal Fellini-esque nudity, is my favorite brand.
Liz G:
Not a ton of nudity in Fellini, outside of when he would be in a brothel.
Natasha:
Yeah, but you see sorta like, there's always sort of like bodies. Like, thick bodies lingering. I just re watched Lina Wertmuller's Seven Beauties. The way she kind of obsesses on form and it's imperfect kind of form, or whatever that means these days ...
Liz G:
Now you're in a position, you are in a position of power, now, to reframe that.
Natasha:
Yeah, but I think in general, for me, the feeling was always ... I think for some reason at a certain point, I sort of decided this part of me, you don't get to have, in terms on a business level. It just felt like, since I've been doing it since I was six years old or five years or whatever, it never felt like the right time to say, "Let's do this and also boobs." I think a lot of it is just fear. I don't know if it's actually that deep or systemic but I think, for example, in Russian Doll, I feel much more in my body and in command in a button down and a blazer then jeans and flats.
I'm not somebody that really feels in my full power kind of when I'm tits out and worried if I have a fat roll. I like kind of the power of ... I never saw Humphrey Bogart's butt. I don't know what it looks like, my God. Why is it my problem? Great. Go watch that movie. Don't watch this one. I don't know why it never really felt like my thing. Then when I see Viggo Mortenson in Eastern Promises and the way he does nudity, I'm like, "Holy Toledo." 'Cause there's an example of a man doing it who happens to be outrageously appealing, let's be honest.
Liz G:
He is, yeah.
Natasha:
Jesus. Moly holy. This guy is a real piece in this picture and in character. As a man, I have no opinion. The character is very appealing, but I mean, it's sorta a profound level of male nudity.
Liz G:
Full frontal nudity, full frontal male nudity.
Natasha:
Harvey Keitel, Bad Lieutenant, right-
Liz G:
But they get praises being brave.
Natasha:
Right.
Liz G:
When men do. When they're full frontal.
Natasha:
Men, you don't look at your bodies, you just decide that they're gangsters for leaning all the way in. With women, it's kind of like, either they're brave because they have beauty standard that is imperfect, yet they showed it, like Kathy Bates, About Schmidt. And everybody talks about how brave it is, which is highly insulting. She's just an amazing actor and she's just ... But for some reason they wanna use the word brave. It's always been so insulting when they call it brave an actor plays gay, like it's such an awful thing to say. Wow, Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhall. Have you ever seen something so brave as these two beautiful boys. What doing their job? Embodying human beings. So, I think there's a real kind of loaded insult in there that frankly I wanted no part of or on the flip side it's like you've done your job well because you're so hot that we've screen grabbed it and we're now gonna trade it online and kind of like add some in posts-
Liz G:
Is that another fear?
Natasha:
... Coming out of your mouth.
Liz G:
Is that another fear that you have?
Natasha:
It's not even a fear, it's more like a game I just don't-
Liz G:
Wanna play.
Natasha:
Yeah, I'm busy. I don't know if I have the bandwidth psychology to also hold a folder for fear of Photoshop cum shots or something.
Liz G:
So then you don't send nudes.
Natasha:
To who? To you?
Liz G:
Maybe to me, but to lovers. What is your stance on that?
Natasha:
These are role, I think separate thing.
Liz G:
Are they though? Because they can be real ... It's the same sort of idea that those photos are-
Natasha:
Well, I would argue that actually, probably the situation where I'd be most likely to do nudity, is if I was the director. I think that when Lena is doing nudity, it's actually quite empowered, right, because she's in charge. And so artistically speaking, she's in charge.
Liz G:
Lena Dunham?
Natasha:
Yeah. So, I think that as a for example, I think that when I'm, if I'm taking a selfie to send to my boyfriend this is a very guess who's got final cut? You know what I mean, as all women do. So that I'm like-
Liz G:
You know your angles.
Natasha:
Maybe. I wasn't born yesterday. Another great picture. So, I think that feels very different to me. That feels sort of once again, sort of M powered versus, I don't wanna say ... I wanna be very clear that I don't actually have any ... I love nudity. And I also love seeing it in film. And I think of it as being the bulk of my favorite movies always have nudity. Male, female, whatever. So, I'm just saying for me, I'm saying there's a fear and almost something that I wish I had done younger. 'Cause the idea of suddenly at 40 being, "Here it is, baby, what you've been missing," just seems kinda like zany. But, I think probably, I always have a fantasy of self-directing a nude scene that's sorta through the bathtub thing, the tap-
Liz G:
The faucet?
Natasha:
Yeah, 'cause you know when you go for the water in the bathtub and it's like a house of mirrors, it's a fun house mirror and I always think that is very fun to look at.
Liz G:
Oh, you mean your reflection and that?
Natasha:
Yeah, your reflection in there is very-
Liz G:
So, a distorted sense of reality.
Natasha:
Yeah, something like that I think is kind of ... I imagine at some point I'll end up ...
Liz G:
Well, you do have a very kind of surreal sensibility to you which is probably why you're so drawn to Fellini.
Natasha:
Yeah, I think there's something very literal about nudity, that bumps for me. Of like, these are them. Take a look, send notes. I just don't ... That context I find panicky. I'm not even really like that, you know me for a long time. When was the last time you even saw me in shorts? You know what I mean?
Liz G:
I love you in shorts, actually. I was thinking, it's true, you're-
Natasha:
Shorts I do-
Liz G:
You do, do shorts. You do shorts with a heel.
Natasha:
With a heel, but I don't-
Liz G:
That is a look for you.
Natasha:
But you're not gonna find me rolling up here in baby denim with some flip flops. You know what I mean? And a tank. It's like I don't fuck with that. I like-
Liz G:
Do you remember when-
Natasha:
I like to be a little bit more nine piece suit, Goodfellas, like stay away, pointy collar. Beware before you come near.
Liz G:
I remember one time you and Deeda and I were standing around here, somewhere and I was wearing an A-typical outfit for me of Adidas slides, a denim skirt and t-shirt and you were dressed like you usually do in cheese dress. She usually does and I don't know, some jogger or something came by and he ... You were fast and he knew that he totally was checking out me, because somehow I looked the most approachable of the three of us.
Natasha:
Yeah, I was doing a full tough guy. Dita [Von Teese] was doing a full legend and you were very out of character, 'cause usually you like to do a real 50s inspired and instead ... Usually you're like you walked out of a period piece and you can do any number of periods, let's be clear. But, it's always really striking, but for some reason you were just like those rip apart Adidas suit track pants and slides.
Liz G:
No track pants, slides and denim skirt.
Natasha:
Oh, it was a denim skirt. That's what I, and I was "Ah, he really likes that you're approachable."
Liz G:
'Cause I was the approachable girl next door.
Natasha:
I'm intimidating, she's intimidating and you're usually the most intimidating and he was really responding to, "Well, she looks like she has interesting friends but she herself is manageable."
Liz G:
But you got into a lot more experimental with fashion in the last few years.
Natasha:
Look -
Liz G:
That led to your directorial debut, actually.
Natasha:
Yeah. The-
Liz G:
The Gonzo short.
Natasha:
And by the way, I love fashion and I think that even ... I love sort of ... I think honestly, now that we're unpacking it from a therapeutic stance and thank you, I think the bottom line for me with nudity is control. I think it feels like a loss of control to me and I think that I'm a real, what are those called?
Liz G:
Control freak?
Natasha:
Yeah, that's it and so I think that even in a photo shoot I'll take a rest 'cause I know it's an image that every body has sort of invested in at being the best. I think that fashion is kind of like, it's a controlled risk, do you know what I mean? It's like I'm happy to jump off a cliff if I'm in charge, whether it's like a selfie or self directing. But just as soon as it's kind of like your final cut of my most exposed self, literally. I'm a little bit like that's tricky to reign for me. I'm like now we've gone to far. You can have all of me, but a little bit I'm not holding back.
Liz G:
We're in a totally different landscape though, in Hollywood than we were two years ago. In terms of even the way nudity is for you.
Natasha:
True, historically and I'm sure that there was a lot of it, that historically it was the male gaze. And that was a game I didn't wanna play 'cause I felt like why do you get to dictate my self worth? I'm not doing this game. I'm not naïve enough ... Either you want me to do this because I'm hot or you want me to do it because you think it's gonna be fun. Or whatever it is, it's sort of to suit you and the male gaze. And even if was directed by a woman, it was sort of with the standard of, and it's true that now's that changed. I can see a world where now, with the right filmmaker, I would be game because the landscape has changed so much.
Liz G:
How's that changed for your career? Not in terms of nudity, but the landscaping, so changed in the last couple of years.
Natasha:
Terrific. The bottom line that statistically speaking it's just not true that it's changed that much, so that's actually the reality. It gets increasingly worse as you sort of sub-categorize by anybody who's historically increasingly marginalized. As you go down the list, it's kind of, but in general it's not like all of a sudden 50% directed by women, 50% directed by men.
Liz G:
That's the goal by 2020 with Time's Up.
Natasha:
It would be wonderful and I'm all aboard that train.
Liz G:
But it's not your reality in the present as you go into meetings?
Natasha:
I would actually say that it is very much becoming my reality. My personal reality, right? Because Russian Doll is a show I created, wrote, directed, starred in, produced with all the other directors, are Leslie Headland, Jamie Babbitt. The other writers are all women and-
Liz G:
And your partner and your production company, too.
Natasha:
Right and Maya Rudolph and I just started a production company called Animal Pictures and Danielle who runs the company with us, is also incredible powerhouse woman. I would even say, Netflix, Cindy Holland is an incredible powerhouse who is there, like somebody I really respect and look up to, who I never felt like, "Oh, I'm sending in Russian Doll," to, you know what I mean? To an unsafe receiver. It felt like the people in charge, it's also a Universal show as well, so it's NBC Universal so that's Pearlena who's amazing. The real heavyweights. At Amazon, you've got Jennifer Salke, that's where Our First Luck is and she's an incredible figure.
Just really heavy duty women and of course, I created Russian Doll with Amy Poehler and Leslie Headland and Amy runs her own kind of production company.
Liz G:
You two are working on a show forever.
Natasha:
Amy and I have been trying to make Russian Doll happen and it ended up becoming-
Liz G:
We've all been wanting you to have your own vehicle for years. Why do the stars align now, do you think? 'Cause it almost happened.
Natasha:
Yeah, time takes time. And I will say that if you ask me in a sort of Twilight Zone sense, would you trade it all that horror to be here now with us? I don't know that in that moment I would have been able to say, "Yeah, I'll wait." I think I would have taken a sorta like something, anything, instead of kind of the loneliness and kind of the nothing that I had going on for so many, many years of just really trying to just get a job. It was so stressful for a decade. A solid decade.
Liz G:
And I remember, what was the play ... I remember one of the first projects you did coming out, like a newly sober was a play in New York.
Natasha:
Likely 2000 Years, right, where Chloe vouched for me-
Liz G:
Yeah, I saw that. You were brilliant in that.
Natasha:
I had a wonderful friend in common. Chloe Sevigny, she really got me that job and that was great but it took a long, long, long time. And all you guys, I feel like, were really trying to help me get something and I remember us trying to work on that Mae West movie and people were looking at us like we had three heads. "Hey, guys." This girl, Liz, you've made, wonderful films, really respected in this area, but you've chosen someone unfinanceable. It was sort of, I think-
Liz G:
And who's kicking themself, now?
Natasha:
Probably, maybe no one, but at least we've sort of-
Liz G:
Even when you got Orange Is The New Black, you were still always the kind of person who like it was very clear, you needed to be in control of the narrative. You needed to be writing, directing, producing your own stuff. As long as I've known you, I've never felt that you would be satisfied, just saying someone else's words.
Natasha:
I think it's fun and I think that Jenji in particular was a real force for me. She was a real almost a mentor I guess or ... But it's not even so much that my relationship with her was mentor, mentee. I think it was just being around a mind that massive. Like such a kind of puppet master. She's a brilliant, brilliant human being Jenji, and seeing the way she can kinda marionette all the players and build a world sort of ... Here's like another 50 characters we've added and to have such a good, healthy, solid relationship with her for seven years. And she let me direct in this last season. It was very life affirming that I was just seeing really powerful women around me.
Whether it was Nora Ephron and Delia Ephron. Whether it was Cindy Holland, Amy Poehler, Jenji Kohan, Maya Rudolph, you, Chloe. They were women who could really be able to, around me, Tracy Ross, my friend, like watching her kind of ... What she was doing. Tracy and I were in this play that Nora and Delia Ephron wrote.
Liz G:
I saw it, remember.
Natasha:
It was wild, do you know what I mean? It was really life affirming to see us kind of people sort of come into their most sort of pre-destined selves. And it's very-
Liz G:
Tracy's someone who, yeah, she's been around a long time, working so hard and it's also amazing to see her get her due and to use it to empower other woman. She did a talk, I think it was for Glamour or something, a couple of years ago where she spoke very openly and honestly about not having children. About being single. About being comfortable in that, about how other people saw that as. And that's a very liberating thing for other women to hear.
Natasha:
Yeah and I think that really sort of touches sort of the deeper wisdom of all this, which is the bigger truth, which is sort of, what's it all for? What's it all about, Alfie? You know what I mean? What are we hoping to kind of get out of any sense of achievement when we know that we kind of we live and we die. So, there's no, there, there. There's no like top of show biz mountain and then get fuckin' screen bingo. It doesn't matter.
I think that Tracy is very much the living embodiment of the true kind of purpose of stuff, which is that she really has something deeper and use sort of power to be communicated to as wide an audience, particular young women, but I think it's really helpful and educational also for so many men to understand how to reframe their thinking around even what is a woman? What is a person? Tracy has such a kind of deep well and powerhouse of humanity. And she had such a gift in articulating that experience. And it's ultimately that sort of the true power and profundity of whatever any of us are kinda doing here, is the way in which we can kind of transmit and sort of glean a glimmer of relief from the arts and whatever form or something. It's a sense of deeper connection and those kinds of things.
That's ultimately ... That's why the sort of soul sorta screams inside when it has no outlet, is, "How will I make a connection with the people and ..." You know what I mean, like, how will I give myself meaning if I can't say my part?" I think that's sort of like the big gift of being sort of finding a place to have a voice. It feels very like soothing. It's almost, for me I experience Russian Doll as like an albatross lifted. Like, "Aha. Now we have a sense of my point of view and I can go and do all these other things." You know what I mean, the big sort of story that I wanted to tell is now off my chest and now I kinda have the freedom to sort of run around, have other ideas, produce your idea and sort of see your idea get made. You know what I mean?
I can other angles on different ideas I wanna tell. It feels very energized instead of the exhaustion of having this big weight on your soul and waiting to unload it.
Liz G:
It makes a lot of sense. We speak a lot about consciousness on this show and with this sex ed, because it's sex, health and consciousness and I'm wondering how you define that? Like some people see it as religion. Or spirituality. And you've been sober over a decade, now. There's even things that I feel like you've probably learned through that experience, that you said to me that really resonated. One of my favorite things you told me when I was going through divorce-
Natasha:
Was buy an airplane, Liz. Whatever you do when you get out of this thing, you get yourself one thing. An airplane. Take all your money out of the stocks. Buy a plane, two planes if you can. Fly them, Liz. Fly them around the world. Go to the Bermuda triangle. Land there. Come back, then you'll be healed. And that's the divorce advice I always give.
Liz G:
I don't know what ... I don't remember what exactly it was, but I remember we were at my dad's house at the time and we were sitting outside. I think we had just gone to dinner somewhere and we came back and I just like burst into tears out of nowhere. I was like just really reeling from leaving a long marriage and I remember you saying to me something about guilt. And you said, "Guilt is a waste of ..." You always have this way of saying things that are like "Guilt is a wasted emotion," which is very cut and dry, that's it.
Liz G:
And it really cut through to me. So, I guess I'm wondering where your sense of faith or consciousness lies.
Natasha:
It's funny. That line in particular, it's also reminding me of that other video that you made. They're both, come from my Godmother Ruth who actually of course in Russian Doll played by Elizabeth Ashley and says the line that I had said to you, you made that video of-
Liz G:
The only thing's real-
Natasha:
No, the only thing easy in life is taking a piss in the show. That's a Ruthism. It's in the show, it's in your video. I've been using it for years and then the other one is, that's hers too. “Tashi, guilt is a wasted emotion." And it's true. In a way, it's this idea of spending a life hashing and rehashing all of our faults and flaws and kind of all the ways in which we coulda, woulda, shoulda done it differently. We're in this moment, now. Because the third line that she likes to use is a Rosalind Russell, Auntie Mame, which is "Life is a banquet and look at all these poor bastards starving to death."
And so, she is effectively, a way of saying right, but we know we've got the here and now and that's about it. Right? And everybody's life is a littered pile of sort of broken dreams and mistakes and kind of a series of errors and for me from a kind of spiritual point of view, it feels like, right, because we're all the same. We're all just like bozos on the bus, trying to do our best. We're trying to kind of do our thing. What my personal best is today, might not be my personal best tomorrow or yesterday. I can't deliver on this podcast any better than ... You know what I mean?
I can wish I'm smarter or more articulate or have something more insightful to say, but ultimately, it's kind of the experience is what it is and then it floats off into the ether. And by virtue if we're at a crossroads and the idea is to turn right or left, if I just sit at that light forever debating which way should I go, I'm never gonna go anywhere. And if I make a right turn and then all of a sudden I start backing up and going back to the cross light and going back and making a left turn, but I get to the middle of that road and I sort of start backing up and going back to the ... I'm never gonna go anywhere.
At a certain point it's ... Make a decision. Make a right turn and you just keep turning right and eventually you'll be back there anyway. Or maybe you'll even find the place. There's nothing ... The whole thing is so deeply imaginary. Just this idea that we have, ambition for the perfect life. The perfect body. The perfect relationship. The perfect career ambition. It's so important. This has to happen. I gotta make the flight. You know what I mean? I gotta score this, whatever. There's no immortality in any of it. You know what I mean? And anything can happen at any moment. It's like whenever I'm on the freeway, I'm always so struck by the ... It just takes one asshole to ruin this party for everyone.
You know what I mean? It's just one miss. Maybe it's not an asshole. Maybe it's somebody who has a stroke at the wheel. It's all so deeply arbitrary and absurd in the first place. And we tie so much intense emotion and the biggest kind of sort of gift for me I think has been the world of jokes. It's the only thing that feels real. The only thing I can really put my finger on that's real is laughing so hysterically-
Liz G:
You pee in your pants?
Natasha:
Well, no. But something else happens in the ether. You know what I mean? There's like some other dimension that you drop into because things are so funny that you kinda forget that you're even a person and you forget that you exist. It's kinda, probably not that different than being high is maybe what I mean, but just-
Liz G:
Or an orgasm, probably-
Natasha:
Sure.
Liz G:
Like some release.
Natasha:
The little death that is a laugh. But, I like it in there. I like it when things are really ... And I like ideas. I like watching ideas crystallize. I find very ... yeah, I mean obviously one thing that I've learned really out of necessity is it's "The goal of life cannot be self." Is ultimately the lesson. It involves a very thematically sort of the message of Russian Doll. Like, that is something that's always going to be forever wanting. So, for example, even in this book, The Girls, Nazimova who I adore ... One of my favorite scenes is-
Liz G:
Alla Nazimova who is a Russian theater and film actress, scriptwriter, producer-
Natasha:
And one of my favorite stories of all time is in this book. In order to calm her nerves, her stage fright, Emma Goldman, the famous anarchist who I love Emma Goldman. Emma Goldman would give Alla Nazimova vulva massages to calm her before going onstage. This is going nowhere, except that to say that the garden, and I always wanted to make a movie called, Vulva Massage. And Nazimova would be at the Garden of Alla years later and it's like-
Liz G:
Which was her property that she bought in Hollywood and turned into this sort of Hedonistic feast of sapphic ladies of Hollywood, of the 19 teens, 1920s.
Natasha:
There is Valentino and Natasha Rambova, they're in their beard marriage and they're running around and having a blast. Anyway, in many ways, I think I used to associate that sort of decadence, that sort of scene that I'm telling you about is like that there was some sort of freedom to be had, there, of touching something that was maybe the truth, which was a much more, yeah, it's like a Terry Southern fantasy or something. I don't know what it is.
Natasha:
And now, anyway my point about that is there's a lot of self there. You know what I mean? There's a lot of kind of win, be the bigshot, ego fame, make it happen.
Liz G:
Escape.
Natasha:
Escape, sex, power, drugs, money, fueled by liquor. It's like really ... So those are all kind of like themes that I still enjoy and I kind of ... I like the idea of dancing with them, around them, in my own ways, but like, the real revelation was of course, that's never gonna actually scratch the itch. You know what I mean? The itch has to be scratched in a deeper sense and that's usually sort of a trip outside self. It's out there. It's not sort of ...
Liz G:
How do you get there? Do you meditate? Do you pray? What do you do?
Natasha:
Sometimes, I've done over the years any number of things that have kinda worked. Whether it's volunteering, leaving the country ... TM, now I'm in Honduras on a sangha yoga retreat and kind of like with them hanging out with all these children. Where did they come from? These other weird ways that I found that are just being in the present moment able to listen to somebody else's-
Liz G:
Story-
Natasha:
Experience and what they're going through and not sort of infusing self into their narrative. You know what I mean? Realizing that's part of what we do, here, is we kind of like listen to each other and show up and these kind of things and I don't know. I think it's all sort of a life in process. There's nothing, everything is sort of imperfect. On a business level I'd say even the idea of getting to produce other people's thing and now that Maya and I have a home base, where other people, especially women can bring in their stories and we can help tell their stories with them, feels really satisfying. Feels like sort of a manifestation of those kinds of spiritual concepts in a way.
But, yeah. Just trying to ultimately sort of being a participating member in life rather than somebody who's trying to check out of life. But, I think the whole thing is a journey.
Liz G:
I have one last question for you for today, because we should do this again in 40 years, when we're 80.
Natasha:
Sure, for sure. I don't even have to look at my calendar.
Liz G:
We'll make holograms of ourselves.
Natasha:
I can't wait. Knock on wood that we get there. You, I have faith in.
Liz G:
Hey, kid. If you made it this far.
Natasha:
Who knows, but either way the idea of that, I'm like, I'm so fuckin' busy. Running here, running there. He's like, "Right, but soon we're gonna be so old that," you know what I mean? The phone's gonna stop ringing. "Hey, Liz. What do you wanna do today?" The other voice, "Should I go to lunch? Okay. See you there at 10 AM? Great." "Four hour lunch, wonderful. I will wear an outfit." I also fantasize that's when I'll finally have money to really buy things. 'Cause I'll be like so old, but it'll be like, "Small residual payment have finally come together. 40 years later." And I'll be like a full Chanel. That's why you see old ladies in full Chanel tweed with Chanel flats. They'll show up at The Ivy. It won't be there anymore. It'll be Space Ivy.
And I'll be like, "Hey, Liz." And I'll have little puffy blue hair, half an Afro, Jew-fro, and big glasses. I'm gonna get big Elaine Stritch glasses. A car. I'm gonna get a convertible too big that I can't see over, like Mrs. Magoo. And then, a full tweed Chanel, in flats and a handbag and Root Beer's still gonna be alive 'cause I'm gonna have her cloned, frozen but with a better attitude. And yeah, that'll be great. I'm saying it would be so much free time.
Like you know what would be smart? A weekend of podcasts and we could read aloud from the book, a large section slowly to each other back and ... I'll be Tallulah Bankhead and you be Garbo.
Liz G:
No, I wanna be Harlow.
Natasha:
You'll be Jean Harlow, smart. We're gonna read aloud. I like that. I'm looking forward to that time.
Liz G:
What are you still learning about sex?
Natasha:
I think I'm just learning that the older you get, the less it's about your body type in a way. So, very much now, I have a uniform. I kinda get dressed in 30 seconds. I basically, I don't wear make up. I really just sort of show up places and I feel sort of sexier in a way than I ever have. Of just like, there's something, "I can fuck you if I want." No, I'm just kidding.
Liz G:
But, totally good.
Natasha:
But, I feel like it's a little bit of a ... Your eyes bulged ... Was that a reaction to the sounds? No. I can't tell anything. I'm no way, Jose. But, I think, yeah I think mostly it's sort of a sense of ... Essentially, I know you said, give away my power. A lot of that you get to dictate my worthiness, if you think I'm attractive enough to sleep with, that will make me feel like I am attractive. And now I feel a little bit more like, there's an inner sense of whether or not I feel like I'm attractive.
And if I feel like I'm attractive, then sometimes from that place, I feel very much like, it could be like Sparky with almost anyone. Whereas something that was consensual and stuff, but whereas in the past I think I used to almost be like waiting for a signal of you telling me if I was enough. Or sort of aggressively wishing. That's something that was clearly not enough, would be. So, I think it feels much healthier, now. It's essentially not about, sex quite literally is not about your outside, it's about your insides people. So, it's about you wanna jam the inside of the genitals together.
Natasha:
And so it's an inside job, literally. That's what I've discovered.
Liz G:
Well, thank you so much Natasha-
Natasha:
Thank you.