Jeremy Scott: Making it, Gender Identity & Fashion Dress Code
Podcast Transcript Episode 22
Interviewer: Liz Goldwyn
Illustration BY Black Women Animate
This week’s guest is legendary fashion designer Jeremy Scott. Jeremy is the creative force behind his own label, Jeremy Scott; has an ongoing collaboration with Adidas; and is the creative director of Moschino. His designs have been worn by icons such as Madonna, Lady Gaga, Cardi B, and Rihanna. Old friends Liz and Jeremy talk about letting his fashion freak flag fly as a teenager in Missouri; “making it” in Paris as a designer; and how gender identity and dress codes have been revolutionized over the last decade.
The following is a transcript of the interview from the episode:
Liz:
So thank you to my very old friend, Jeremy, for being here with me today.
Jeremy Scott:
Aww, it's my absolute pleasure.
Liz:
So, I'm so excited to actually talk to you on the record about some of these questions. It's been fun making questions for someone I know for, how long has it been? Over 20 years, right?
Jeremy Scott:
Aww. Pretty much. I mean, I moved here in 2002. February 2002, I moved here. So I think we met slightly after, within that first year of me moving here.
Liz:
When was Starring?
Jeremy Scott:
Starring, I think was ... it had to be between 2003-2004.
Liz:
The Tinsel Town Collection.
Jeremy Scott:
Yes. Yes.
Liz:
Which was a movie that Jeremy directed, that I-
Jeremy Scott:
And you produced.
Liz:
... I produced.
Jeremy Scott:
I wanna be really clear with everyone that I could not have made that without your help. That's very-
Liz:
And then he forced me, which ... I didn't want to be in front of the camera. He made me play twins.
Jeremy Scott:
That's what happens when you're a muse.
Liz:
I play the Worthalot twins. And actually, the best person in that, I always say, is Tori Spelling.
Jeremy Scott:
She was. I mean, it's TV actresses, I mean, that's really where you go for the like ... and she got it. She got that it's like, it is camp, and it is over the top, and just go for it. And it was, you know, played to high heavens.
Liz:
While the rest of us were busy being high-brow, and then when we saw it come out we were like, damn, that bitch stole our thunder.
Jeremy Scott:
I remember at one point when we were filming the hospital scene, and Liz, or not Liz, sorry ... who am I forgetting her name-
Liz:
Asia?
Jeremy Scott:
No.
Liz:
Amber Valletta?
Jeremy Scott:
Sorry, no.
Liz:
China Chow?
Jeremy Scott:
No.
Liz:
Lisa Marie?
Jeremy Scott:
Lisa Marie, sorry. The L got me. I went on the wrong place. Then Lisa was like, "Oh, TV actresses." Like, in a sigh. Just like ... I was like, yup. That's what they're good at.
Liz:
And now look at it, everybody wants to be on TV.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah, it's true. That is a big change in culture since then, ultimately. It's like, that was kind of more of a dumping ground, and now it's like a playground.
Liz:
You grew up in Kansas City on a livestock farm.
Jeremy Scott:
Well, I was born in Kansas City, and I grew up in a smaller town, outside of Kansas City, about an hour away. We had our main house in Clinton, Missouri, and then I was also ... the farm was in Laurie City, which is like, a population of like, 300. So that's where the farm was. But it was farm already, Clinton was farm community. I think our population was 12000. So I mean, that's already teeny-tiny, and then about 20 minutes away, or 30 minutes away maybe, was where the actual farm was.
Liz:
So you went to high school in that?
Jeremy Scott:
I came back to high school in Kansas City. So I was there from elementary through fifth grade, and then came back to Kansas City in fifth grade and had culture shock, because ... I mean, it sounds ridiculous to say, but Kansas City was way more, let's say, advanced, and I was playing with my cousins and playing with dolls, and playing with dilapidated farm things, and in a little bubble. And then all of a sudden, I was on public transportation with people who ... I'd never cursed, and I remember one boy cursed, and I remember turning to him and I go, "Shhhh," and then he just slapped my face so hard, and then got off the bus, and that was the end of it. I was like, I was just like ... I was such a goody-goody, living in a little idyllic Norman Rockwell bubble, compared to being in an urban location.
Liz:
I mean, I grew up in LA, and I remember in seventh grade, this girl in school said the word cunt to me, and just being like, "Oh my god! That's the worst thing, I've never heard a word like that." This same girl also told me that she wanted to lick the sweat off of Axl Rose's balls, and I think both things were just so shocking to me as a seventh grader.
Jeremy Scott:
And now, as a grown woman, you're like, "Cunty, cunty, cunty."
Liz:
But I've seen ... you showed me your high school photos, and you had this really evident flair for style at a young age, you were coming up with these amazing looks.
Jeremy Scott:
Thank you. Yeah, every day was my fashion show, so to speak, going to school. I mean, I think if I didn't ... if it wasn't about being concerned about what to wear, I probably wouldn't have gone to school. And it, really oddly, it was really ... just for me, because ... and maybe two friends, because most people fucking hated me at school, because they were freaked out by me. So there really wasn't almost a day of high school from the picture day, which was prior to actual school starting, because we used to do our picture day before you go to school. Some schools do it that way, some do it others. And I remember being chased by a skinhead that day, who told me he was going to murder me. And I was just like, okay, this is going to be awful, these four years. Because he's also friends with the kids that were skaters, and other new wave kids that was kind of in this genre of alternative people that I was at least in the sphere.
And I'm like, okay, he wants to kill me? Then what do these other people wanna do, because he's already hanging out with people I know. And so, yeah, it was a lot of verbal and physical altercations, all the time, through the whole ... mainly the first two years were really hard, about that. As I got older, and then there was newer kids, obviously the newer kids didn't feel as emboldened or ... and there's always somebody that had something to say. Because that's kind of the problem, especially with those microcosms of schools. And when you are different, and especially with people with sexuality, and clothes, and how that ... I still don't understand why it freaks people out.
Like, if you're wearing something that seems out of the norm, or perhaps out of your gender window, or whatever it is to people, that it freaks them out so much that they feel violent, or they feel like they need to persecute you. I don't know how much of that is really something about them and their own insecurities, or what. But I've never got it, because honestly, it's like, I see people that wear shit that I don't like all the time, and I just ignore it. I don't think, oh, you're disgusting and I hate that. I just ... you know, I don't care. I only care about what I'm wearing, or people that I'm dealing with that I ... if I'm dealing with their clothes, you know what I mean? I don't really ... I don't, in that way, judge people by what they wear.
Liz:
But how did you make it through high school with that kind of animosity? And this is also ... we didn't grow up with Instagram, and Facebook, and social media in that way, where we could connect to other people.
Jeremy Scott:
I know. I sometimes think about that, 'cause I think it's kind of, in one way it's like, how great now? 'Cause I would think I could feel mirrored by other people that I never would've met, where I felt so isolated, and I had, really, two friends, truly, that I felt understood me, and we would talk about what we’re gonna wear to school the next day, and whatever little bits of high fashion we could gleam from newspaper or magazines or TV. And that was what we obsessed on.
And how I got through, I just became a tougher person mentally. And I remember at the end, someone pointed out to me that I would walk down the halls with my head, my chin really high up, and that they thought I acted like I was modeling on a runway, like I was just really snotty. And it's like, obviously it was just a protective mechanism of trying to just be like, yeah, you aren't going to, you're not going to break me down, and you're not going to destroy me. So if I walk through just so confident, it just kind of fooled people in that way, I guess.
I mean, I was happy with how I looked ... I mean, and like any teenager, of course, I was ... acne, and had things I didn't like. I don't mean that there wasn't stuff that I didn't love, but I mean, I loved putting clothes together.
Liz:
Wasn't there a cropped gold football jersey?
Jeremy Scott:
There was a cropped, gold, lamé-
Liz:
Lamé.
Jeremy Scott:
... quilted-
Liz:
I remember the lamé.
Jeremy Scott:
... junior Gaultier reversible hooded jacket that I got in Paris, when I went to Paris, and that I loved and I was obsessed with. And I remember I went to my best friend's house, and knocked on the door to show her, and her dad opened, and he goes, "Gold lame!" But I heard him say, "Gaultier?" And I was like, "It is, it is Gaultier, oh my god, you noticed!" It was ... I was like, caught up in my own little fashion bubble in the middle of nowhere, and I was just living my own fake life. That was really what I did. I lived a false narrative, and it was just living in a bubble, in your own brain.
Liz:
So you started learning French when you were what, 14?
Jeremy Scott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). From first year of high school, I had the choice to take French, Spanish, or German. I chose French, and I was flunking the first semester, and then I discovered high fashion Paris runways. And then I got an A, and then became French Club President, had French foreign exchange students, went to Paris. I was obsessed.
Liz:
When did you go to Paris for the first time?
Jeremy Scott:
I went prior to my high school graduation, for my graduation present from my sister.
Liz:
With your sister?
Jeremy Scott:
With my sister, and my best friend. The three of us went together, my friend from high school. We went to Paris, and I was so excited, 'cause I thought I was gonna see all these runway-looking women walking down the streets of Paris. I just thought ... that didn't exist in Kansas City, I thought it was like, the way everyone ... I thought they would have these hats, and these shoulders, and that it was gonna be like, walking down the street, and that was what happened. And it was kind of like, I was all done up in all my gear, I had these big dookie chains with dollar signs, and I was all very into hip hop and mixing it with ethnicity, and all these kind of different things together. It was very soul to soul, that music, and I loved all of that.
And I was so shocked when I got to Paris. I thought everyone looked brown. Like, the clothes were brown, the sky was brown, the buildings were brown. Everything was just kind of like, dusty. You know what I mean? Like, there was not like this panache and color and this vibrancy and this kind of cunty cunty cunty, you know, runway. I always thought I was gonna see like, Mugler ladies and Gaultier girls and Montana vixens and all of the ... Chanel bunnies and all this stuff. And it just wasn't part of the daily grind there.
Liz:
What was the ideal woman like? Who was the ideal woman around this time, when you first fell in love with fashion?
Jeremy Scott:
Well, I mean Gaultier was my favorite designer. Liz is wearing a vintage Gaultier piece that I love, and I remember very well from the collections. And so he was who I was the most attached to. I always admired, and I still do, I always admired designers that could create their own world, and their own vision. And I liked that they all ... I'm very old school in that way. I liked that they ... you know, there was a Montana woman, there was a Mugler woman, there was the Gaultier girl. There was these different personalities, and I thought it was cool that they all existed, and they all co-existed.
But I was in this Gaultier camp, I was dedicated and devoted to Jean Paul, and I loved his vision, and that was where I felt most aligned. So I marched myself immediately from the hotel to the Gaultier store on Rue Vivienne, and I got to the door and started pulling it open. I was so excited. And then this French woman who worked there was like, came and said "Sorry, we're closed," and pulled the door shut. I was like, what? I've come all the way here, like, look at me. Don't you see I'm your person? And then I had to go back the next day, they didn't let me in. It was very French of them, let me tell you. I was so excited, and so let down at the same moment.
Liz:
And when you first started making clothes, who was the woman that you were designing for?
Jeremy Scott:
When I started making clothes, I don't know if I really ... I just started making clothes because I obviously needed to express myself. I don't think I really thought, originally ... I mean, I moved to Paris to get job. I wanted to work for Gaultier, and I wanted to give back to someone that I loved and had made me feel inspired by fashion. And I did several interviews with Jean Paul ... 's team, more than him, sorry, his team, and it never came to fruition. I just wanted an internship, I wasn't even ... it was very American, like, I don't need to be paid, I just wanna learn. But it being France, there's many bureaucracies, and being American, and not having health insurance from a school, was a roadblock I couldn't get over, finally, what was the end.
And so then I was there, in Paris, and I was feeling very excited to be there, it felt like I was in the right place, and it felt like the right things happening, and I remember I was like ... 'cause I was sleeping on people's floors, and people's couches, and I lived in every arrondisement in Paris because I would be like oh, you have a couch, for a couple days I can stay there? Okay, great. So I moved constantly, because I was homeless.
And I remember staying on the floor of this one French guy, who I had met in New York. And then I remember, I must've been complaining, like, "This isn't happening." And he was like, "Well if you're so good, then why don't you just do it yourself?" And I thought, yeah, fuck you Frenchie, I'm gonna do it myself. 'Cause he was being cunty about it. And I was like okay, well, okay. And then I just set forth. I'm like okay, I'm gonna have a show next season. And then I started making a plan and just started making clothes and put a show together. One person was like, oh, I can get you a space because I do nightclubs, and I know all these spaces that would be happy to host something. And I knew this girl who was doing art installations, and she had all this lighting equipment that she had for her art, and she was like, oh I can help you light it. Like oh, okay.
So it was just ... it's like one of those old Hollywood movies where people all band together to put on a show. It was like that. And it was just kind of like, friends that were like, oh you should model because I love the way you look, and then someone else being like, oh, I know a friend at an agency, I can get some models. And it was just kind of all these things. And so I just made everything, sewed everything. Two people I knew were like, oh, I'm a makeup artist, I'm a hairdresser, and they kind of helped, and then I ended up taking over the hair and makeup because they weren't doing it right, for what I wanted. And I dressed every model, sent every model out, did the music myself.
I mean, it was like, I did everything myself, ultimately. And the show happened, and it was at that time, way before the internet was showing every last nuance of every second of everything that we live, much less fashion. There was the first TV channel, pretty much in the world, I believe, but it was in France, that did the shows pretty much sometimes live direct, or shortly after, which was already very rapid for what was the access at that time. And it was Marie-Christiane Marek from Paris Premiere, and she sent her TV crew, and they filmed my first show, and I did an interview.
And so, within a week, everyone in France that watched her show knew exactly who I was. It was like, who's this kid, and then all of a sudden this like, American kid with shaved eyebrows and gold fronts with fangs, and a crazy accent, and ... just did this show that looked like a car accident, hospital-inspired, sometimes by Orlan and her surgical additives, because I did ... the high heels were just a high heel on a bandaid that you wrapped around your ankle, so you were technically walking on your toe, and the heel was like a bone, and it was kind of like you could ... it was called body modification, you could modify your body like you could modify a car.
And I was also thinking about Crash, the film and the book, and this kind of autoeroticism from car crashes, and played Van Halen, 'cause to me it seemed like the music you play in a car, and at that time I was very into the sound of Van Halen. So ... I mean, I still think that David Lee Roth is the best rockstar ever. But yeah, that happened, and the show happened, and then it just rolled. And then the next season, I did a show again. And then I won, at that time, it was called the Venus de la Mode, for the best new designer. It had never gone to an American, much less some upstart kind of kid. And then, weirdly enough, the season after that, I won it a second time in a row, which never had happened for them. And it just kind of happened.
So I owe so much to France, and the French people, because they really understood, and they have such a passion for fashion. People saw I had a vision, were excited by it, and would help, and do what they could to be part of it. So yeah, it was the right place for me to be. I just went there for the wrong thing, in the sense that I went there for a job and ended up creating a career. I'd thought maybe in my head, well, one day maybe someone will retire, if I was working for someone, and I would maybe take over. I didn't think, oh, I'm gonna go start my own house. That was probably way too bold of an idea for me to imagine at that moment.
But that's one of the things, it's like ... I learned in life, especially through that experience, was like, you can plan a, b, c, and d, as a lot of high functioning ... what's it, type-A personalities maybe wanna do. But you also just have to realize, it's life. And so you could plan a, b, c, d, e, f, g, but it might be z that's the one that happens, and it's really the one that you're supposed to do. But you don't know that until it's going, and you just have to also have the fluidity to be able to accept that.
Liz:
So as someone who's not only been your friend for a long time, but also been involved in the fashion world for a long time, we've both seen, A, the fashion world change immensely, and really just within the last few years. But what's interesting to me is watching the audiences at your shows, at your Jeremy Scott shows, from the very beginning, were very different than going to any other fashion show that you would see in sort of your mainstream fashion week.
And I always liked that your shows, the audiences, really, you felt welcomed. You know, going to fashion shows, whether you're in New York, or Paris, or London, or Milan, there's a certain set of expectations, traditionally, between who gets invited to those shows, what people look like, what their size is, what their color is, kind of fits into a mold. And your shows, from the beginning, were the total opposite of that. And everybody's been really engaged, and that's been encouraged, that kind of fun atmosphere. So it's interesting to now see the fashion industry kind of come around to embrace a more diverse crowd, that you've been cultivating all along.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's true. It's ... I mean I've never, obviously I'm on the flip side of the show, so I don't really know the full feeling it feels, and I don't go to other shows really. But I've had it told to me how different it feels to be at my show, on the outside, the audience, and the excitement, and the enthusiasm, and kind of the love. And maybe 'cause it is done more with people that I love and care about, and I'm not always ... it's not about, well, your status on the masthead, it's like, oh, I think you're rad, and you're a cool person, or you inspire me, or I love what you do, or all these other things can be part of it.
Liz:
But let's be real about the way the fashion industry operated for a very long time, is that unless you were an advertiser in a lot of these magazines, or unless they deemed you a ... I don't wanna say all the names of the magazines-
Jeremy Scott:
A darling?
Liz:
Yeah. But you don't get coverage, you wouldn't get coverage in the magazine.
Jeremy Scott:
Oh, but that's still the same, I mean.
Liz:
But now there's the internet.
Jeremy Scott:
There's internet, yes.
Liz:
Now it's not, you're not ... now the mainstream publications are not necessarily the voice of what is-
Jeremy Scott:
They don't hold the gates, they're not the gatekeepers any longer.
Liz:
But it was for a long time.
Jeremy Scott:
Of course.
Liz:
So if those people weren't at your show, it kind of meant ... But what's interesting is that you, all along, had these champions.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah. I mean, I'm a complete testament to creating my own career, and creating my own world, without having the support of the mainstream fashion hierarchy, we could say. I mean, I created my own fan base on my own, through my work, through the things I did, from cultivating them ... I mean, even starting my Adidas collaboration ... now I don't even know what year that was, but ... 2006, or something like that. And before there was this whole street wear kind of thing where there's couture houses like Valentino doing tracksuits. Which is cool, I'm not shitting on anybody. But I'm just saying like, it was not happening, it was not fathomable. And so I created a whole fan base through this whole other current that had nothing to do with high fashion.
Liz:
'Cause high fashion was supposed to be inaccessible.
Jeremy Scott:
Basically, yes. But I was like, oh, that's cool. Like, I would wear that, I'm gonna wear that, I'm gonna make things I would wear, my friends would wear, and just kind of created a whole other world. So everything I did, my jobs came to me from my work and from my stuff. They weren't handed to me from the hierarchy, let's say, in that respect.
And it is cool that it's changed, and I think that's what's one of the most amazing things about, let's say, social media, that it's allowed so many more voices to be heard. And that way, if you like some girl that's in Taiwan that colors her own hair, and maybe sometimes posts pictures that she likes of fashion, or things she wears, or whatever, and she's someone that you iconize, whether she has ever gone to a fashion show in Paris, Milan, New York or whatever, it doesn't really matter. If her content resonates with you, that's what matters.
And people can kind of find their own, let's say, editors and chiefs that they like through these bloggers, Instagram people, whatever terms you wanna use for them. It's like, oh, even people that just kind of cultivate images, maybe not even of themself ... like, oh, I like these images and these things, are such a huge, vast world, and no longer does anyone, editor-in-chief, nor any one designer, make or break what it is. There's never gonna be like, oh, this hemline is the hemline, because you can't have that kind of hold on it anymore. Which I think is great, because everyone's body is different, everyone's personality is different, everyone's social, economical situation is different.
So yeah, some people don't look good in short skirts, and so they shouldn't wear them because they don't feel comfortable, and they don't look good in their own happiness of it. I don't mean it in my judgment of it, but in their own. Because I think everyone should wear whatever they wanna wear. If you wanna wear a short skirt, and everyone else thinks you look hideous in it, fuck 'em. As long as you feel good, that's all that matters. But let's say you don't feel like that's ever gonna work for you, for whatever reasons. Then if it's ... you should wear what you wanna wear. And so my point is kind of like, in this thought of well, in the '60s everyone wore short skirts, kind of situations. I don't think that life's gonna happen ever again, this kind of dictated situation, which I think is great, because I think everyone's so different, you can't do that.
Liz:
When did you start to see things change? Because when you first started out looking at magazines as a teenager, the woman that was presented by Vogue, Bazaar, Elle, etc. was thin, white, and conformed to certain standards of beauty, and now we see size-inclusive clothing on the runway, we see diversity on the runway, and we also see a lot more of non-binary expression of clothing on the runway.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah, yeah. That's an interesting question. When did I start seeing change ... I mean, in a way, I don't know if I could note when I saw a change, but it's one of those things where it's like, I already thought differently. So it's kind of like, it was already kind of wired in me. You know? Like, I already liked other things, and already had other thoughts, and I think even sometimes some of the stuff I did at the very beginning of my career, other people put their views on what they thought it was about, or what I was thinking, and it wasn't always that.
So sometimes when people liked some of my early stuff, they didn't really maybe realize how weird it was in my head. They didn't understand the thoughts in my head. And so ... yeah, I mean I've always been a very equal opportunity employer about clothes. I'd be like, if it can fit on your body in one way or shape or form, and you wanna wear it, it's yours. Was it a man's, woman's, child's garment? 'Cause going to thrift stores, growing up, to use those clothes to express the way I wanted to look, I loved that. I loved that I was taking clothes from anywhere, it was like magic.
So yeah, I'd wear a tiny, tiny shirt. I know you did too, like wear baby tees at one point. So it's like, really literally taking clothes from a children's department to make it look the way you want it to look, and appear. So I've always kind of been that way. Like if it was a men's, women's, whatever it is, however I wanted to present myself, I used it all. So I-
Liz:
But you were saying earlier like, you didn't see yourself, because we didn't have social media, mirrored at that age.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah.
Liz:
So like, at what point do you feel that we started to see more queer visibility and unisex? And the subject of the Met Costume Institute and Ball this year is camp and dressing up. When did we start to see that outside of Mugler, or drag, really on like a street wear level or runway level?
Jeremy Scott:
Maybe I'm wrong, but I kind of think it's now. I mean, I think it's very now. I think within the last year and a half, to be truthful. I mean even my two seasons ago collection, I went back to my own Polaroids I did in my early days in Paris, with all the makeup I would create on myself to express ... 'cause it was like, I was never doing drag, 'cause I'd never ... at that time drag meant also looking like a woman, first of all, and it meant having fake breasts and this whole thing. I wore makeup, but I still thought I was just ... what I would have called it at the time was a club kid.
But I also wasn't, on the flip side ... not all club kids do drugs, but I wasn't doing drugs and just living for a party. I was expressing myself and I was using makeup, and there was androgyny, and I never wanted or thought about being a woman, or even to portray that. Even in a nightclub thing, even if I wore ... and I did wear traditionally women's clothes, in the sense that I wore evening gowns that were shredded from the '30s, it looked like you walked out of a coffin ... and I mean, I had all these different personalities. I'd do this 1800s versus 1980s, it was like, 1880s versus 1980s looks where I kind of mixed all this kind of parachute pants with like, puffed sleeve Victorian jackets.
And I would create all these different characters on myself, because that was the only place I had. I didn't have a runway collection, and models, army of models to create them. And so I went back to those pictures recently because I was like, you know what, yeah, this is very pertinent now. And I was doing it intuitively. And not that I was the first person ever in the whole world. I mean, you could go back obviously to icons like David Bowie, you know, using androgyny, and other people-
Liz:
Or Rudi Gernreich.
Jeremy Scott:
Yes.
Liz:
Rudi Gernreich's unisex collection which was what, late '60s, early '70s?
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah.
Liz:
Which I hope people ... maybe if people don't know who Rudi Gernreich was, I think his house has been relicensed, but he was a designer who was Austrian, living and working in Los Angeles. He invented the topless bikini, the pubikini, which he sold with green hair dye so your pubic hair would be green, and he did a androgynous unisex collection.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah, for two.
Liz:
And then that was what, 1970s? So we were like-
Jeremy Scott:
I think it was, I think it was like '72.
Liz:
We're like, you know, 40+ years later now.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah. Yeah. And we can't forget to mention our love, Peggy Moffitt.
Liz:
Yeah. Or Rudi's muse, Peggy Moffitt, who modeled the topless bikini.
Jeremy Scott:
Yes. Very famously.
Liz:
But it's true, you really do see it really in the last couple years where you ... or few years, where you start to see gender nonconforming models, or trans models, you wouldn't ... that was much more rare.
Jeremy Scott:
I think now, human stories are more important than just also pure physical attributes.
Liz:
And also people wanna ... just the same way you didn't see people who were expressing themselves the way you were as a teenager. People wanna see that. That's the power social media has, is that you can reach people all over the world who are in high schools where they're tortured every day, and it's like, fashion just has such a broad reach.
Jeremy Scott:
It's absolutely true.
Liz:
And now we're at this turning point, which is instead of it being this elitist thing for just a few, it's like, it can be a saving grace for some people.
Jeremy Scott:
Absolutely. 'Cause I mean, there's people like myself who used fashion to express themselves and would've absolutely died if they didn't have that expression, and didn't have that way of opening up, or getting that out. I mean, to me, that was how my creativity was coming out. Now it comes out obviously more in my actual work, I mean I still think I look cool, but I know I don't look outrageous. 'Cause sometimes I'll see somebody looking outrageous, and I'm like ... and then they'll just walk by me, and I'm like, yeah, you know, I was you, I was you. So, don't be so smug.
Liz:
What changed? Why'd you tone it down?
Jeremy Scott:
I just think with time ... also, I don't need to prove it on my body, because I'm proving it in my own work so much. So it's more of that. It's not ... for me personally. I don't know about other people's situations, but it's like oh, yeah, I'm expressing so much in my work, and that my work speaks for itself in that respect, and now I just whatever I feel like I'm in the mood for personally.
Liz:
Another thing is that your shows have always been so fun and escapist and full of camp and glamour, but we're in a much more politically-charged time. And I think last fall, you wore a t-shirt that said, "Just say no to Kavanaugh." And was that one of the first times you've expressed your politics so publicly?
Jeremy Scott:
Mm-mm (negative). No. I don't think so. I mean, I did a show called, "Right to bear arms," which was about-
Liz:
Oh, with the Constitution dress, right?
Jeremy Scott:
Yes. And, yeah. And it was about, at that point, President Bush was wire tapping, so I did this phone print that was a phone and the thing-
Liz:
I have it, I have it.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah. And I was thinking about all those things, and teddy bears with military guns, because I was thinking how ... and I did the helmet that Rihanna and other people have worn, but it was an army helmet with Mickey-shaped ears on it. My whole point was it was kind of like, war is silly, it's such a stupid, silly concept, it's no different than cartoons because it's so silly in that respect. It's absurd, we shouldn't be doing this, you know?
And so, I feel like I've always had political things. Sometimes they're maybe not as clear as the Kavanaugh t-shirt, which was like, literally, and here's the number to call to say no to your senator about Kavanaugh. But I've always tried to do whatever I feel is important personally. And I realize that sometimes some of that alienates people, and people can be like, well, yeah but in the place you are, it's like, well, yeah, there's people that maybe feel more aligned within that, so to speak, within my domain, but there's also people that don't, and you know, don't.
I mean, I've seen people write, or heard their bullshit. Like, you know, "Just design some clothes, keep your opinions to yourself." And then, well, I'm an American citizen who pays my taxes, and I pay a lot of taxes, and so I will do as any American citizen has. I have a voice, and I will use it. And if it's magnified, then all the better, and that's my right. You know, that's my right as an American citizen and I take that seriously.
Liz:
Have there been some issues that you've stepped into? For example, someone like Kavanaugh who's vehemently anti-reproductive rights, that are more hot button than others?
Jeremy Scott:
I think everything is hot button. I mean, I wore a shirt about gun control, and I think that's a hot button thing too. People fall all over that, and it's like, I just don't understand. Too many people are dying unnecessarily because of guns, and why we can't do something about it, other than the fact that it goes back to money ... I'm still so in awe of all the Parkland survivors, especially Emma Gonzalez, who spoke out so beautifully, and so inspiring, and they've done such a great job to continue the dialogue and not let the dialogue die, as we now, I think, are a year after the shooting, and kept ... smartly organized themselves.
And those kids are so inspiring, because so many of them are so articulate about it, and really going to the root that this is about money from the NRA to different senators and like, don't vote for them then. Like, if they're not gonna change the law, then tell them we're not gonna vote for you. And ask them where their money's coming from. And to really get to the root of it instead of this kind of mystery of like, why is nothing ever change, and why can't people change it?
Liz:
They did in New Zealand, after-
Jeremy Scott:
They did. And that was also-
Liz:
Yeah. In six days.
Jeremy Scott:
And that's inspiring. And I feel like things can change, and will change, as a new ... I think the new generation of kids who are now able to vote, and starting to vote, and going to vote in the next year, and these years, as this new generation comes up ... yeah, they're very clear that these are disgusting politics. And these are ... they're not ... those kids are, definitely, they don't think in the world of straight and gay. They're very open about sexuality, and they're not freaked out about people being different. So banning trans people from the military, all this stuff, it seems absurd to them. Way more absurd than it does to me and you. So it's like, that's where I feel very hopeful, because-
Liz:
'Cause they're not really even thinking in terms of a binary spectrum.
Jeremy Scott:
No. The fact that I call myself gay is disgusting and old to them. I'm like a dinosaur. Like, what's wrong with you? You know what I mean? It's so foreign, and that's part of the generational difference, and it's amazing and inspiring and beautiful. And I am so hopeful when I see them, that that change, for those important issues, can come. Because of course they don't think in all this hideous racism and stuff that goes on in our country now, that's been basically going from the top ... I mean, the whole Charlottesville and the whole, good people on both sides crap. It's like, they don't think that at all. They're not confused at all. They know that that was hideous, disgusting behavior and there's no place for it. No place for talking about, Jews will replace us, and all these awful chants, and all this stuff. Whether they're Jewish people or not, these kids do not see that as something that's good or cool or acceptable, it's so foreign to them. And that part makes me happy.
Liz:
What's fashion's place in all this? Because of social media, and because of our access to information on the daily, it's like we're inundated all the time, whereas fashion when we were growing up was this glorious sense of escape, in some ways, like fantasy, right?
Jeremy Scott:
Sure.
Liz:
Like, really aspirational. And now it's so mixed. So can we still ... I mean, I know my feelings on this because I'm sitting here wearing a vintage Gaultier shirt while talking to you, but can we still have fun and appreciate dressing up, and glamor, and all these things in these politically charged times?
Jeremy Scott:
Absolutely. And the reason, I feel like you have to be able to, A, recharge, even to go back to the fight, and whatever can make you feel good, and make you feel happy ... we still have to find happiness, and find joy, and a lot of people can find happiness and joy from wearing clothes that make them feel good, or that put a smile on their face, or put a smile on someone else's face when they see it. And those things are fundamentally important. And I try, still, to embolden my shows with that whimsy and that feeling. Because to me, I always think about it like the depression era in Hollywood, and you went to a double feature for a nickel, and you saw two movies while your stomach was rumbling and you were hungry, and there was scarcity of food and there was a war going on, or whatever was happening. Whatever strife was going on, you escaped into the big screen for that time, and you forgot everything.
To me, that's what my show is. That's what ... if it's an Instagram post about the show, that's what it is. Someone wearing something, even if it's a phone case, hopefully it takes people away for even an instant. And if for one second I can put a smile on someone's face, or something I've done has been able to put a smile on someone's face, then that's the best gift I can give, and then I've achieved something great that day.
Liz:
Yeah, it's true. I mean, lipstick sells through the roof during times of economic depression as well.
Jeremy Scott:
Absolutely.
Liz:
Just to have that slick of brightness.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah. And if it can make you feel brand new ... I mean, if a lipstick color, putting some lipstick on can make you feel brand new, then that's amazing.
Liz:
What's it like now, almost 20 years since you first started out, having so much of your work included in the upcoming Met show, which is about camp?
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah. It's phenomenal.
Liz:
Literally, you're being inducted into the institution of high fashion.
Jeremy Scott:
It's amazing. I mean, when I got the call that Andrew Bolton wanted to include so many pieces, and was pulling so many pieces from my own archives, from my five years at Moschino and ... I cried, I did. I was very floored, 'cause it is ... I've always felt like an outsider, and I probably always will. And I kind of still am. And I know that's sometimes confusing to people who look at me from a distance, but they don't really understand my whole journey. They see, kind of ... sometimes people see a glimmer of what you have there, what it is, they don't understand, is like, yeah. I was an outsider growing up, I was an outsider getting into fashion. I've fought for everything I have. I've worked hard for everything I have, and I've done it with sincerity and passion.
And I'm not putting anyone else down, but that's ... I just don't, I don't feel like ... and I'm still not part of every reindeer game, and that's fine. I'm more at ease about it now than I was when I was younger 'cause I felt more bruised about it. But yeah. It was a big fucking deal. There's no other way to put it. And to hear him talk about it to me, himself, and how important my work was to this theme, was such a huge honor, and such a wonderful, exciting ... it's wonderful and exciting and it's something I'm excited to see the exhibition. He's shared a few images he shot for, I guess, for the catalog, along the way of some of my pieces, and that's been very exciting. Seeing, already, the press come out about, pre-press about it, with so many of my pieces being included in the imagery that they've curated for it, it's been very flattering, exciting. I'm on cloud nine about it.
Liz:
Validating.
Jeremy Scott:
Yeah. It is validating. And you know what, that might sound sad, but you know, we all need to feel validated. We all need to feel mirrored. I mean, I don't need just my validation when I go get to the parking. I need validation like literally like any other human. You wanna feel like you matter, and that you're heard, and you're appreciated. And the fashion world, as the world that I work and live in, can be quite bitchy. Very dismissive, very bitchy, very cliquey, and all of that. And I'll always feel like I'm not part of the in-crowd. And so it made me feel a little bit more like I was part of the in-crowd, at least for today.
Liz:
So my last question for you is, what are you still learning about fashion's relationship to sex and gender?
Jeremy Scott:
What am I learning about fashion's relationship to sex and gender? That it's completely moving. I mean that's one thing that's kind of awe-inspiring. Kind of like we were saying, that how much it's changed, and how it's changing rapidly, and how that is exciting for people. And it's no longer ... things that seemed taboo are no longer seeming taboo, and people are embracing those things. And then you kind of get a different concept, 'cause at one point you kind of ... you feel like, okay, this is the world that has told me this, so I guess this is the way the real world is. And it's like, wait, the world has shifted, actually, because people don't feel so hateful about this more fluid kind of gender, non-conforming roles, in fashion. And that part's exciting. So I guess it's more that it's like, wow, keep your eyes open, because who knows where it goes.
Liz:
What about fashion's relationship to, and responsibility in terms of the way they present gender and sexuality?
Jeremy Scott:
I mean, fashion's so irresponsible, I don't know what to say about that. We're a naughty bunch, aren't we? I guess ... I mean, part of fashion to me is always just mirroring ... I always think, I feel like I'm a sponge, and I mirror, and it's about processing what's going on in culture, and what's happening, as well as my own artistic kind of output, and how I perceive things. So part of it is just, it's like a cog. And I always think about fashion as a cog, 'cause it's like it doesn't turn independently from finance, or politics, or pop culture, or science even, or whatever. It's part of that. So if something else shifts, especially shifts hard, it's turning that cog. And it's all interrelated. So I guess ... I don't know if that really answered your question. Fashion's naughty.
Liz:
Are you naughty?
Jeremy Scott:
I mean, obviously a little bit, because part of fashion is being frivolous to a degree. And so ... you know ... but I'd like to think that yes, I may not be curing cancer, or I'm not doing brain surgery, but hopefully what I do do does bring joy to people, and that part is pertinent in this world. So in that way, when I think about it in that way, I think, yeah, I'm doing something that's important, because I make people happy. And that's what my goal is. To touch people's lives, to be part of the conversation with people, to be in the fabric of their lives, and hopefully, yeah, bring joy along the way.
Jeremy Scott:
And I think that that's always important. And if we're doing it through film, or through a comedian that you love, doing standup or anything that you enjoy that makes you happy, and if I can do that through my work, then I think it's important. And it's pertinent, and it matters in that respect.
Liz:
Thanks for being here.
Jeremy Scott:
Of course. My absolute pleasure.